From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.5 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,HTML_FONT_LOW_CONTRAST,HTML_MESSAGE, MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [50.116.15.146]) by inbox.vuxu.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E75F26B87 for ; Wed, 26 Jun 2024 22:58:15 +0200 (CEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A6276434AD; Thu, 27 Jun 2024 06:58:11 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-vs1-xe2a.google.com (mail-vs1-xe2a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::e2a]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D8424434A4 for ; Thu, 27 Jun 2024 06:58:04 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-vs1-xe2a.google.com with SMTP id ada2fe7eead31-48f389cfa33so594317137.0 for ; Wed, 26 Jun 2024 13:58:04 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ccc.com; s=google; t=1719435484; x=1720040284; darn=tuhs.org; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=hs0NZyNNsPJHnf44/H+43ZZDb1T39I5w/t5oYDHUX4c=; b=cvQ0OUNPMg1OOPiALB5SQAnDN1CfkqhkjdG+nWvyUoAlpf2snxf9jTmfRU/LwghV4N NJAf7SqZ96G9IYikYVeuCn3mUFXoM5KqeHOa5mdV9KKWiDc5MJstcI3LCLYhPls88x71 pb3BuRLqRI8M1OssrZ2UtKhq5whKUVeozHQh8= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1719435484; x=1720040284; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=hs0NZyNNsPJHnf44/H+43ZZDb1T39I5w/t5oYDHUX4c=; b=cWiXD1Y6I2yxmcIFdLPGUTeUP9tAC3MWmuPlhHvM5uQqD4zwAj17zqNDf+rV27oUnb rhHOSy7PsK9dpOwxc+msi2WhisHDFuCgjIa0Eg7Ep3xU6Epf/UCBEAWft38PAShtcFKX YHuHvMLXRzdAZMW+x6FQSGWy6x3VZmjFaUKChvJeAaLan9zlguJjCO24NQqLu6RnXnY3 +Gp+o57bmXNghbtTNdd/YEnPUSuDjmwLLLBv76pPD10RWF9zL2qI/TTqz/IJ2m6CfJQT UHxbsbjHT8gElurzF4cZpH89Iymfe8fy0zheLNgyJsaRRXLCFEZIpwQ/XGDUJvWkvEOD 64eg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YzYjzmuqxcpLAZzL/UfeE/HQUkJuqlSK/P+gcIDdrP5L0LM1SmF +zRJVMTw6LPScxfV0WPJK3jyj0xl63iH6nggBlIhkHL4Dv5BvOSaz4ahi6dP+gmqLSd/2HB8uy0 ac8KsU9jfPXlHOnsu6ez19+E/0IkY/6kYXinglVDFXVut5ON19B3O X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IHmm8K1Fk91qllRzBO/TN5l6xqobs7hkM8hBfVcNJvvpp4TCwD7dMeYdMIQx9Aczn4QZ7WVPR4iSubjwpfjS7k= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6102:3747:b0:48f:7f95:ea8a with SMTP id ada2fe7eead31-48f7f95efc8mr2315161137.20.1719435483756; Wed, 26 Jun 2024 13:58:03 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <202406190655.45J6tkVP902384@freefriends.org> <1c8abcf6-5997-3c9e-7d08-b941b34089db@bitsavers.org> <2a929725-9ecf-ab7d-ffb1-bf0da3a2a688@bitsavers.org> In-Reply-To: <2a929725-9ecf-ab7d-ffb1-bf0da3a2a688@bitsavers.org> From: Clem Cole Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2024 16:57:28 -0400 Message-ID: To: Al Kossow Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000003959b5061bd145b7" Message-ID-Hash: WYLEBEEKY3RNCPGOXIUZXTCBTSFI33SH X-Message-ID-Hash: WYLEBEEKY3RNCPGOXIUZXTCBTSFI33SH X-MailFrom: clemc@ccc.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: tuhs@tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: Unix single-machine licensing (was Re: Re: ACM Software System Award to Andrew S. Tanenbaum for MINIX) List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: --0000000000003959b5061bd145b7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The article says is *"REVIEW: Was Onyx the first UNIX vendor on micro hardware? MARSH: I think so. I signed the distribution license in November of 1979."* By then, Al Arms (who ran Patent and Licensing of UNIX for AT&T) knew numerous of the commercial licensees wanted something better than the current "second CPU" license, plus many wanted binary redistribution rights. As I said, it is quite possible that Onyx signed the original V7 redistribution license first, but it was offered to many of us. I also pointed out that many of us pushed back and that there was great unhappiness with the terms that AT&T had offered. This is why we got together as a group to negotiate something. - which would later become the System III license. This contrasts with Al and the team coming up with something like they did with the V7 redistribution license. =E1=90=A7 On Wed, Jun 26, 2024 at 4:42=E2=80=AFAM Al Kossow wrote= : > On 6/19/24 9:44 AM, Clem Cole wrote: > > > > > > On Wed, Jun 19, 2024 at 12:00=E2=80=AFPM Al Kossow aek@bitsavers.org>> wrote: > > > > On 6/19/24 8:47 AM, Clem Cole wrote: > > > > > That's how I remember Otis Wilson explaining it to us as > commercial licensees at a licensing meeting in the early 1980s. > > > We had finally completed the PWB 3.0 license to replace the V7 > commercial license (AT&T would rename this System III - but we knew it > > as PWB > > > 3.) during the negociations Summit had already moved on to the > next version - PWB 4.0. IMO: Otis was not ready to start that > > process again. > > > > Is the really early history of Unix licensing documented anywhere? > > > > Not to my knowledge -- I probably know much/most of it as I lived it as > part of a couple of the negotiation teams. > > > > The work on reviving a Plexus P20 prompted me to put up the history > of Onyx and Plexus at > > http://bitsavers.org/pdf/plexus/history < > http://bitsavers.org/pdf/plexus/history> and a long time ago someone who > worked at Fortune > > told me we can all thank Onyx in 1980 for working out the single > machine licensing withAT&T > > > > Hmm, I'm not sure =E2=80=94but I don't think it is wholly clear=E2=80= =94although Onyx > was early and certainly would have been a part. They were not the only > > firm that wanted redistribution rights. > > > > Numerous vendors asked for the V7 redistribution license, with HP (Fred > Clegg), Microsoft (Bob Greenberg/Bill Gates), and Tektronix (me) > > being three, I am aware. It is quite possible Onyx signed the original > V7 license first, but I know there was great unhappiness with the > > terms that AT&T initially set up. When the folks from AT&T Patents and > Licensing (Al Arms at that point) talked to us individually, it was > > sort of "this is what we are offering" - mind you, this all started > >>pre-Judge Green<< and the concept of negotiation was > > somewhat one-sided as AT&T was not allowed in the computer business. > > > > An interview with Bob Marsh where he claims Onyx had the first license in > Nov 1979 (pg 40) > http://bitsavers.org/pdf/plexus/history/Bob_Marsh_Interview_198412.pdf > > > > --0000000000003959b5061bd145b7 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
The article says is <= font color=3D"#ff0000">"REVIEW: Was Onyx the first UNIX vendor on micro hardware? MARSH: I think so. I signed the di= stribution license in November of 1979."

By then, Al Arms (who ran Patent and Licensing of UNIX= for AT&T) knew numerous of the commercial=C2=A0licensees wanted someth= ing better than the current=C2=A0"second CPU" license, plus many = wanted binary redistribution rights.=C2=A0 As=C2=A0I said, it is quite possible that Onyx signe= d the original V7 redistribution license first, but it was offered to many = of us.=C2=A0 I also pointed out that many of us pushed back and that there = was great=C2=A0unhappiness with the terms that AT&T had offered.=C2=A0 = This=C2=A0is why we got together=C2=A0as a group to negotiate=C2=A0something. - which wo= uld later become the System III license.=C2=A0 =C2=A0This contrasts with Al= and the team coming up with something like they did with the V7 redistribu= tion license.=C2=A0 =C2=A0

3D""=E1=90=A7

On Wed, Jun 26, 2024 at 4:42=E2=80=AFAM Al Kossow <aek@bitsavers.org> wrote:
On 6/19/24 9:44 AM, Clem Cole wrote:
>
>
> On Wed, Jun 19, 2024 at 12:00=E2=80=AFPM Al Kossow <aek@bitsavers.org <mailto:aek@bitsavers.org&= gt;> wrote:
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0On 6/19/24 8:47 AM, Clem Cole wrote:
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > That's how I remember Otis Wilson explain= ing it to us as commercial=C2=A0licensees at a licensing meeting in the ear= ly 1980s.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > We had finally completed the PWB 3.0 license = to replace the V7 commercial=C2=A0license (AT&T would rename this Syste= m III - but we knew it
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0as PWB
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > 3.) during the negociations=C2=A0 =C2=A0Summi= t had already moved on to the next version - PWB 4.0.=C2=A0 IMO: Otis was n= ot ready=C2=A0to start that
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0process again.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Is the really early history of Unix licensing docum= ented anywhere?
>
> Not to my knowledge -- I probably know much/most of it as I lived it a= s part of a couple of the negotiation teams.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0The work on reviving a Plexus P20 prompted me to pu= t up the history of Onyx and Plexus at
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0http://bitsavers.org/pdf/plexus/histo= ry <http://bitsavers.org/pdf/plexus/history> an= d a long time ago someone who worked at Fortune
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0told me we can all thank Onyx in 1980 for working o= ut the single machine licensing withAT&T
>
> Hmm, I'm not sure =E2=80=94but I don't think it is wholly clea= r=E2=80=94although Onyx was early and certainly would have been a part. The= y were not the only
> firm that wanted redistribution rights.
>
> Numerous vendors asked for the V7 redistribution license, with HP (Fre= d Clegg), Microsoft (Bob Greenberg/Bill Gates), and Tektronix (me)
> being three, I am aware. It is quite possible Onyx signed the original= V7 license first, but I know there was great unhappiness with the
> terms that AT&T initially set up. When the folks from AT&T Pat= ents and Licensing (Al Arms at that point) talked to us individually, it wa= s
> sort of "this is what we are offering"=C2=A0 - mind you, thi= s all started >>pre-Judge=C2=A0Green<< and the concept of negot= iation was
> somewhat=C2=A0one-sided as AT&T was not allowed in the computer bu= siness.
>

An interview with Bob Marsh where he claims Onyx had the first license in N= ov 1979 (pg 40)
http://bitsavers.org/pdf/plexu= s/history/Bob_Marsh_Interview_198412.pdf



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