From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HTML_FONT_LOW_CONTRAST,HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_32,HTML_MESSAGE, MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 21533 invoked from network); 10 Mar 2023 17:28:51 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (2600:3c01:e000:146::1) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 10 Mar 2023 17:28:51 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3AAC44157A; Sat, 11 Mar 2023 03:28:47 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-ua1-x92e.google.com (mail-ua1-x92e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::92e]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D56FB41579 for ; Sat, 11 Mar 2023 03:28:39 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-ua1-x92e.google.com with SMTP id n4so4018092ual.13 for ; Fri, 10 Mar 2023 09:28:39 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ccc.com; s=google; t=1678469318; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=4momCPGyFvPv6goeKPV3VaBkSoDF7C7MgOuTr2bcMbI=; b=d4zCQYfS6rRbSiqKf7eyIn3HxD7MQDlwWjiCJdBv60Zn/0BCOSjWjU3XLlv6Umityb LoVzo8kBDBw7ndbA9l2l9I/uY/tG8fwqucWYIff2g+83i00qzU6PIDNFAzDxVdvlNEwY 8wCiI3UvxVfWpqNX+97Pvq5ZXEAzoyxQhz2yw= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; t=1678469318; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=4momCPGyFvPv6goeKPV3VaBkSoDF7C7MgOuTr2bcMbI=; b=q4IBIPBwuZFJVc7kuFjiTm7C+aaIoNQ+xJ+MhSixQFLcMjjeArOhix6LrvrCITtmCT SzbadhwyOGwsj7tVqqZ1KlfIQboav1GaZG8h5u6L3Ti3Te/8lHugh1xwlAZaFdUR8eNv egC4kwXI/QHNACumLVotR6Vf9EnmDy+ZktZ2vjuHYT09zgPB8FWPViC1RaWns7BNSRQ4 8mxLPs0LQC87DlXJpSwL1VPWC1PcaGDc0nSY6VvhaYUvBnIwfhkh3/v9uZtkVw/kTflh 3VdPZhmBjFHYu2/GShOZ7TjjX2J8L2bDlDLd7AZIoPkSZhV6v1R6RgO3AVHcnWFJzFWJ 6Bww== X-Gm-Message-State: AO0yUKWPa4QR4RT87AktluyBmUkIkRMZx9flAbRNCGVhaNo9oTSfnatX lK6BJYwpmfZt+oiGbUam5N3Kf53lh6sWlaqNBwp7Yxex5Xi70khKghsFxA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AK7set+HDki4kIx4zRuGdiKYKasRV+mZyHIy0hujolzUJd366l45v8Pgh0qDrP/cDYTkH0sQH6LV27gM/LUzc5CLdQE= X-Received: by 2002:ab0:5402:0:b0:68a:a9d:13f5 with SMTP id n2-20020ab05402000000b0068a0a9d13f5mr17059621uaa.1.1678469318513; Fri, 10 Mar 2023 09:28:38 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20230310115145.7F23118C080@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> In-Reply-To: From: Clem Cole Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2023 12:28:12 -0500 Message-ID: To: Ronald Natalie Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000007f294605f68f1794" Message-ID-Hash: O5E2MJZGAXIZU6VYFIRSYACNHXCY4NST X-Message-ID-Hash: O5E2MJZGAXIZU6VYFIRSYACNHXCY4NST X-MailFrom: clemc@ccc.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: Noel Chiappa , tuhs@tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: I can't drive 55: "GOTO considered harmful" 55th anniversary List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: --0000000000007f294605f68f1794 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Mar 10, 2023 at 9:16=E2=80=AFAM Ronald Natalie = wrote: > Multilevel breaks are as bad as goto with regard to structure violation. > Amen. My memory of the argument at the time was one of pick your poison. Each language has trade-offs and it depends on what you value. C was considered "dirty" by many CS types in the day compared to languages like Pascal, Simula67, Algol-X. I've always said the key was what was left out of the language, not what was put in. Dennis offers a few important pieces of wisdom here: - "When I read commentary about suggestions for where C should go, I often think back and give thanks that it wasn't developed under the advi= ce of a worldwide crowd." - "A language that doesn't have everything is actually easier to program in than some that do." - "C is quirky, flawed, and an enormous success." Arnold's observation about trying to be small is reasonable, although contemporaries like BLISS did have support. So the comparison should really be to BCPL, PL/360, BLISS, *et al*. for features/size [although Wulf cheated, the BLISS-11 compiler was not self-hosting and needed a PDP-10 to run it]. =E1=90=A7 --0000000000007f294605f68f1794 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Fri, Mar 10, 2023 at 9:16= =E2=80=AFAM Ronald Natalie <ron@ro= nnatalie.com> wrote:
Multilevel breaks are as bad as goto with regard to structure v= iolation.
Amen.=C2=A0 My memory of the argument at= the time was one of pick your poison.=C2=A0 Each language has trade-offs a= nd it depends on what you value. C was considered "dirty" by many= CS types in the day compared to languages like Pascal, Simula67, Algol-X.<= /span>

I've always said the key= was what was left out of the language, not what was put in. Dennis offers = a few important pieces of wisdom here:
  • "W= hen I read commentary about suggestions for where C should go, I often thin= k back and give thanks that it wasn't developed under the advice of a w= orldwide crowd."
  • "A language that doesn't = have everything is actually easier to program in than some that do."
  • "C is quirky, flawed, and an enormous success."=

Arnold's = observation about trying to be small is reasonable, although=C2=A0contempor= aries like BLISS did have support. So the comparison should really=C2=A0be = to BCPL, PL/360, BLISS, et al. for features/size [although Wulf chea= ted, the BLISS-11 compiler was not self-hosting and needed a PDP-10 to run = it].


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