From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.6 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,HTML_FONT_LOW_CONTRAST,HTML_MESSAGE, MAILING_LIST_MULTI,T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [50.116.15.146]) by inbox.vuxu.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52EA129BF3 for ; Sun, 16 Jun 2024 21:45:11 +0200 (CEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3635B42A14; Mon, 17 Jun 2024 05:45:06 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-vk1-xa35.google.com (mail-vk1-xa35.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::a35]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 67F1042A0F for ; Mon, 17 Jun 2024 05:44:54 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-vk1-xa35.google.com with SMTP id 71dfb90a1353d-4ed10427e43so1035839e0c.2 for ; Sun, 16 Jun 2024 12:44:54 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ccc.com; s=google; t=1718567093; x=1719171893; darn=tuhs.org; h=to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version :from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=puiP2HEahI+F7kHpjD6LADesBA76a+i6k3V2NtAPRCg=; b=CBj891KvkaGwJAmZMD1DoGyFi1cjYofNSu0K8LZqUAzR3onz8HjqNyXchB3nhF0gKw JyL5LE+aAGMjn1CzIrZ6iupTHnXl9kAjcL7h+hg6f4mpXszfAgcES3uqwPVWvSRJbWQO 5PjEYUIG36/FSbiOu8xoKD2TLT9CQPQvxoamo= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1718567093; x=1719171893; h=to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version :x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=puiP2HEahI+F7kHpjD6LADesBA76a+i6k3V2NtAPRCg=; b=cKbMbLW7+mnU8FJXXlfxJAjV2ue7N5jJ5C1WoShQnaZPJ31rJfmSko5KFg4gWcQOX9 LMestEI1+2rP1Qre4dd9hnF0to9UKegTccm0NbYeTb+5RaPZWlZPJ+yLqPNLT96n9KHH wSCC5zw4mNgHet5jUy2dodrOVJPuUzsQFqvzRL9cmKUzHvg2WGsjcnF4FE4wPFrF9JMy R8arUHnt84bBTAKQqzdHjOtvq2QrDVN9UTob43LrroCQDsolzovmbEOUaDGX3t1wXvpJ Xx9lsytpLmATJ+yXX4LxMLSik9PqHwSSPl7eGyr5393z2kDTXHeDBdhzy7h+VS2r8xe7 gNoA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YxW6Z1WG1i093EA3LDGJ0HcHBaWg1tcae5eb4YJ0+XN32y4X1Ok NBjtExlQrFrIVG+HUKME0Z7TT0zizFi+AHFAEgzV//kBtVV7Xh2gLf2hjdtOW0SVKTuUOT1kFGU zCjeMOPszpat07ILFZSF302QkM9TSlx2unodYrPRc1DEoj0/+vg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IGn+1maSAi9XJbGUlzlAG4uml69pvwKkQNnkQUo/ixMH+nNOsFrluuajdUnF9iyp6vNUjB20cfQhNMFJyIW4W0= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6122:a28:b0:4e4:eda9:ec32 with SMTP id 71dfb90a1353d-4ee40530de8mr6464237e0c.10.1718567093040; Sun, 16 Jun 2024 12:44:53 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <73819d1a-395a-4b74-a20c-0123fbed56bd@technologists.com> <87msnl4ew0.fsf@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: From: Clem Cole Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2024 15:44:16 -0400 Message-ID: To: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000001a9262061b071584" Message-ID-Hash: OIMOWUBSLVO5UFXO3QKLDPHLJ66CN3JU X-Message-ID-Hash: OIMOWUBSLVO5UFXO3QKLDPHLJ66CN3JU X-MailFrom: clemc@ccc.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: Version 256 of systemd boasts '42% less Unix philosophy' The Register List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: --0000000000001a9262061b071584 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, Jun 16, 2024 at 2:50=E2=80=AFPM Greg A. Woods w= rote: > In the "Unix world" everyone learns shell scripting, some better than > others of course, and some hate it at the same time too, but I would say > from my experience it's a given. You either learn shell scripting or > you are "just a user" (even if you also write application code). > Side story - I think you can tell a lot about a person by what is on their bookshelf at work and what books they have read. A few years ago, I discovered this same flaw in using UNIX (Linux) well with some of the new hires (from really good schools, too), and it was worse because they often had never seen the true Bourne shell (nor knew much/anything about Algol, much less A68). Many thought "bash" was the UNIX shell because they never knew better (chuckle). I realized it was a huge hole in their education, so I got my admin to order each copies of K&R2 and UPE for their desks. I said I expected them to do the exercises in them as part of their "training." I could usually tell a lot about each person by the questions they asked during that period. Many often griped about having to learn to use ed and nroff. I think those that were already EMACS folks thought I was a little bonkers but my comment was that you'll understand the other tools better/be a lot more effective with the shell in particular. Many had seen Latex, so the >>idea<< of a document compiler was not always completely foreign. But they crawled through each book. But it was interesting when it was done. To a person, they all said they were much better with the UNIX tool kit after UPE, and because they actually read K&R2, they often learned a few things about C they never realized. Once they "graduated" also I gave them a copy of APUE, if they were doing networking stuff, UNP too. Most would start doing the APUE and UNP problems also as I would get some of them coming to my office with questions, but I never said they had to do them. Clem =E1=90=A7 --0000000000001a9262061b071584 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Sun, Jun 16, 2024 at 2:50= =E2=80=AFPM Greg A. Woods <woods@ro= bohack.ca> wrote:
In the "Unix world" everyone learns shell scripting, s= ome better than
others of course, and some hate it at the same time too, but I would say from my experience it's a given.=C2=A0 You either learn shell scripting= or
you are "just a user" (even if you also write application code).<= br>
Side story - I think you can tell a lot about a pe= rson by what is on their bookshelf at work and what books they have read.

A few years ago, I discovered this same flaw i= n using UNIX (Linux) well with some of the new hires (from really good scho= ols, too), and it was worse because they often had never seen the true Bour= ne shell (nor knew much/anything about Algol, much less A68).=C2=A0 Many t= hought "bash" was the UNIX shell because they never knew better (= chuckle).=C2=A0 =C2=A0I realized it was a huge hole in their education, so = I got my admin to order each copies of K&R2 and UPE for their desks.=C2= =A0 =C2=A0I said I expected them to do the exercises=C2=A0in them as part o= f their "training." I could usually=C2=A0tell a lot about each pe= rson by the questions they asked during that period. Many often=C2=A0griped= about having to learn to use ed and nroff.=C2=A0 I think those that were a= lready EMACS folks thought I was a little bonkers but my comment was that y= ou'll understand the other tools better/be a lot more effective with th= e shell in particular. Many had seen Latex, so the >>idea<< of = a document compiler was not always completely foreign.=C2=A0 But they crawl= ed through each book.

But it was interesting when it = was done. To a person, they all said they were much better with the UNIX to= ol kit after UPE, and because they actually read K&R2, they often learn= ed a few things about C they never realized.=C2=A0 Once=C2=A0they "gra= duated" also I gave them a copy of APUE, if they were doing networking= stuff, UNP too.=C2=A0 Most=C2=A0would start doing the APUE and UNP problem= s also as I would get some of them coming to my office with questions, but = I never said they had to do them.

Clem
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