Just checking that the TUHS list hasn't gone belly up, as it's been pretty quiet for a week :-) Cheers, Warren
Hi Warren,
On Di, 2022-03-29 at 07:03 +1000, Warren Toomey via TUHS wrote:
> Just checking that the TUHS list hasn't gone belly up, as it's been pretty
> quiet for a week :-)
>
all is well here :-)
Best regards,
Hellwig
On Tue, 29 Mar 2022, Warren Toomey via TUHS wrote:
> Just checking that the TUHS list hasn't gone belly up, as it's been pretty
> quiet for a week :-)
>
> Cheers, Warren
>
*pong*
-uso.
received. TUHS people must be too distracted by the OSI tangents at internet-history@elists.isoc.org Charlie On 3/28/2022 4:03 PM, Warren Toomey via TUHS wrote: > Just checking that the TUHS list hasn't gone belly up, as it's been pretty > quiet for a week :-) > > Cheers, Warren -- voice: +1.512.784.7526 e-mail: sauer@technologists.com fax: +1.512.346.5240 Web: https://technologists.com/sauer/ Facebook/Google/Twitter: CharlesHSauer
Is it time for vi vs emacs or BSD license vs GPL wars? Be careful what you wish for :-) On Tue, Mar 29, 2022 at 07:03:56AM +1000, Warren Toomey via TUHS wrote: > Just checking that the TUHS list hasn't gone belly up, as it's been pretty > quiet for a week :-) > > Cheers, Warren -- --- Larry McVoy lm at mcvoy.com http://www.mcvoy.com/lm
On Tue, 29 Mar 2022, Warren Toomey via TUHS wrote:
> Just checking that the TUHS list hasn't gone belly up, as it's been
> pretty quiet for a week :-)
Just lurking (but saving all posts) as I pursue other interests; looking
after my diabetes is somewhat high on the list...
-- Dave
On Mar 28, 2022, at 2:07 PM, Warren Toomey via TUHS <tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org> wrote:
>
> Just checking that the TUHS list hasn't gone belly up, as it's been pretty
> quiet for a week :-)
>
> Cheers, Warren
My impression is that there is much less traffic on pretty much all the mailing lists I am on and I am wondering why.
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 728 bytes --] On Monday, 28 March 2022 at 15:24:38 -0700, Bakul Shah wrote: > On Mar 28, 2022, at 2:07 PM, Warren Toomey via TUHS <tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org> wrote: >> >> ???Just checking that the TUHS list hasn't gone belly up, as it's been pretty >> quiet for a week :-) > > My impression is that there is much less traffic on pretty much all > the mailing lists I am on and I am wondering why. Yes, I had noticed that too. I had assumed a US holiday or some such. Was there one? Greg -- Sent from my desktop computer. Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key. See complete headers for address and phone numbers. This message is digitally signed. If your Microsoft mail program reports problems, please read http://lemis.com/broken-MUA.php [-- Attachment #2: signature.asc --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 163 bytes --]
LA county had a day off from school: Cezar Chavez day!
> On Mar 28, 2022, at 4:23 PM, Greg 'groggy' Lehey <grog@lemis.com> wrote:
>
> On Monday, 28 March 2022 at 15:24:38 -0700, Bakul Shah wrote:
>> On Mar 28, 2022, at 2:07 PM, Warren Toomey via TUHS <tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> ???Just checking that the TUHS list hasn't gone belly up, as it's been pretty
>>> quiet for a week :-)
>>
>> My impression is that there is much less traffic on pretty much all
>> the mailing lists I am on and I am wondering why.
>
> Yes, I had noticed that too. I had assumed a US holiday or some
> such. Was there one?
>
> Greg
> --
> Sent from my desktop computer.
> Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key.
> See complete headers for address and phone numbers.
> This message is digitally signed. If your Microsoft mail program
> reports problems, please read http://lemis.com/broken-MUA.php
If apple formed a union, would it be "united fruit" -that would seem
appropriate on Cezar Chavez day...
On Tue, Mar 29, 2022 at 9:54 AM Andrew Hume <andrew@humeweb.com> wrote:
>
> LA county had a day off from school: Cezar Chavez day!
>
> > On Mar 28, 2022, at 4:23 PM, Greg 'groggy' Lehey <grog@lemis.com> wrote:
> >
> > On Monday, 28 March 2022 at 15:24:38 -0700, Bakul Shah wrote:
> >> On Mar 28, 2022, at 2:07 PM, Warren Toomey via TUHS <tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> ???Just checking that the TUHS list hasn't gone belly up, as it's been pretty
> >>> quiet for a week :-)
> >>
> >> My impression is that there is much less traffic on pretty much all
> >> the mailing lists I am on and I am wondering why.
> >
> > Yes, I had noticed that too. I had assumed a US holiday or some
> > such. Was there one?
> >
> > Greg
> > --
> > Sent from my desktop computer.
> > Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key.
> > See complete headers for address and phone numbers.
> > This message is digitally signed. If your Microsoft mail program
> > reports problems, please read http://lemis.com/broken-MUA.php
>
> On Mar 28, 2022, at 4:23 PM, Greg 'groggy' Lehey <grog@lemis.com> wrote:
>
> On Monday, 28 March 2022 at 15:24:38 -0700, Bakul Shah wrote:
>> On Mar 28, 2022, at 2:07 PM, Warren Toomey via TUHS <tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> ???Just checking that the TUHS list hasn't gone belly up, as it's been pretty
>>> quiet for a week :-)
>>
>> My impression is that there is much less traffic on pretty much all
>> the mailing lists I am on and I am wondering why.
>
> Yes, I had noticed that too. I had assumed a US holiday or some
> such. Was there one?
It seems to be a longer term trend than a holiday or a month of
Ukraine war. May be people are moving to newer platforms (forums,
twitter, reddit, discord) or newer topics.
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1417 bytes --] On Monday, 28 March 2022 at 17:00:22 -0700, Bakul Shah wrote: >> On Mar 28, 2022, at 4:23 PM, Greg 'groggy' Lehey <grog@lemis.com> wrote: >> On Monday, 28 March 2022 at 15:24:38 -0700, Bakul Shah wrote: >>> On Mar 28, 2022, at 2:07 PM, Warren Toomey via TUHS <tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> ???Just checking that the TUHS list hasn't gone belly up, as it's been pretty >>>> quiet for a week :-) >>> >>> My impression is that there is much less traffic on pretty much all >>> the mailing lists I am on and I am wondering why. >> >> Yes, I had noticed that too. I had assumed a US holiday or some >> such. Was there one? > > It seems to be a longer term trend than a holiday or a month of > Ukraine war. May be people are moving to newer platforms (forums, > twitter, reddit, discord) or newer topics. I never cease to marvel at peoples' capacity for masochism. But there are other things too, like the daily FreeBSD commit mail, which also seems to have dipped a few days ago. And that's frequently an indication of some more global holiday than Cesar Chavez. But it's interesting to read about Cesar Chavez. Thanks to whoever mentioned it. Greg -- Sent from my desktop computer. Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key. See complete headers for address and phone numbers. This message is digitally signed. If your Microsoft mail program reports problems, please read http://lemis.com/broken-MUA.php [-- Attachment #2: signature.asc --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 163 bytes --]
At the Stanford Information Systems Lab while I was there 1976-81, we had a series of PDP-11s. The first one I remember was an 11/34 running V6 and later V7. It was later upgraded to, I think a /45 and finally a /70. At first everyone used ed, then Prof. John Gill hacked it to add a command, I think ‘%’ that was the equivalent of .-10,.+10p which on our 9600 baud Hazeltine’s was a glimpse of the future. At some point we got ex/vi, but before that we got the “Rand Editor” re, which was a perfectly functional screen editor, if you squinted a bit. Does anyone here know the place of re in the history? Later, Gill went off for a sabbatical at Yorktown Heights and came back to complain about having to use SOS on the mainframe. He reported, however, that global search and replace was very fast. -L Also a few years later I got Dave Conroy’s version of microemacs. I complained about the key bindings and he told me to use the “change configuration” command, or cc.
Aaah, just what we need, an editor discussion. My first hands on experience was with PC/IX on an XT. ISC provided INed, which I was told was based on the Rand Editor. INed was a gentle transition from using XEDIT on VM/370, so I was comfortable with INed. But one of my Unix mentors persuaded me to use vi, and that has been my preferred editor since roughly 1985, assuming you count Vim as vi, since I mostly use Vim on Linux, Windows and macOS, only occasionally using real vi. Charlie On 3/28/2022 7:31 PM, Lawrence Stewart wrote: > At the Stanford Information Systems Lab while I was there 1976-81, we had a series of PDP-11s. The first one I remember was an 11/34 running V6 and later V7. It was later upgraded to, I think a /45 and finally a /70. > > At first everyone used ed, then Prof. John Gill hacked it to add a command, I think ‘%’ that was the equivalent of .-10,.+10p which on our 9600 baud Hazeltine’s was a glimpse of the future. > > At some point we got ex/vi, but before that we got the “Rand Editor” re, which was a perfectly > functional screen editor, if you squinted a bit. > > Does anyone here know the place of re in the history? > > Later, Gill went off for a sabbatical at Yorktown Heights and came back to complain about having > to use SOS on the mainframe. He reported, however, that global search and replace was very fast. > > -L > > Also a few years later I got Dave Conroy’s version of microemacs. I complained about the key bindings and he told me to use the “change configuration” command, or cc. > -- voice: +1.512.784.7526 e-mail: sauer@technologists.com fax: +1.512.346.5240 Web: https://technologists.com/sauer/ Facebook/Google/Twitter: CharlesHSauer
On Tue, 29 Mar 2022, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote:
> On Monday, 28 March 2022 at 15:24:38 -0700, Bakul Shah wrote:
>> On Mar 28, 2022, at 2:07 PM, Warren Toomey via TUHS <tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> ???Just checking that the TUHS list hasn't gone belly up, as it's been pretty
>>> quiet for a week :-)
>>
>> My impression is that there is much less traffic on pretty much all
>> the mailing lists I am on and I am wondering why.
>
> Yes, I had noticed that too. I had assumed a US holiday or some
> such. Was there one?
>
> Greg
Not that I'm aware of... just the clocks going forward.
-uso.
On 3/28/22 5:29 PM, Larry McVoy wrote: > Is it time for vi vs emacs or BSD license vs GPL wars? Be careful what > you wish for :-) <let them fight.gif> -- ``The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne.'' - Chaucer ``Ars longa, vita brevis'' - Hippocrates Chet Ramey, UTech, CWRU chet@case.edu http://tiswww.cwru.edu/~chet/
in the US and the UK, on different weekends afaik.
- Henry Mensch
On March 28, 2022 21:21:12 Steve Nickolas <usotsuki@buric.co> wrote:
> On Tue, 29 Mar 2022, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote:
>
>> On Monday, 28 March 2022 at 15:24:38 -0700, Bakul Shah wrote:
>>> On Mar 28, 2022, at 2:07 PM, Warren Toomey via TUHS <tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> ???Just checking that the TUHS list hasn't gone belly up, as it's been pretty
>>>> quiet for a week :-)
>>>
>>> My impression is that there is much less traffic on pretty much all
>>> the mailing lists I am on and I am wondering why.
>>
>> Yes, I had noticed that too. I had assumed a US holiday or some
>> such. Was there one?
>>
>> Greg
>
> Not that I'm aware of... just the clocks going forward.
>
> -uso.
I used SOS a bit, but did anyone use Stopgap itself, or only its son?
-rob
On Tue, Mar 29, 2022 at 11:55 AM Charles H Sauer (he/him)
<sauer@technologists.com> wrote:
>
> Aaah, just what we need, an editor discussion.
>
> My first hands on experience was with PC/IX on an XT. ISC provided INed,
> which I was told was based on the Rand Editor. INed was a gentle
> transition from using XEDIT on VM/370, so I was comfortable with INed.
>
> But one of my Unix mentors persuaded me to use vi, and that has been my
> preferred editor since roughly 1985, assuming you count Vim as vi, since
> I mostly use Vim on Linux, Windows and macOS, only occasionally using
> real vi.
>
> Charlie
>
> On 3/28/2022 7:31 PM, Lawrence Stewart wrote:
> > At the Stanford Information Systems Lab while I was there 1976-81, we had a series of PDP-11s. The first one I remember was an 11/34 running V6 and later V7. It was later upgraded to, I think a /45 and finally a /70.
> >
> > At first everyone used ed, then Prof. John Gill hacked it to add a command, I think ‘%’ that was the equivalent of .-10,.+10p which on our 9600 baud Hazeltine’s was a glimpse of the future.
> >
> > At some point we got ex/vi, but before that we got the “Rand Editor” re, which was a perfectly
> > functional screen editor, if you squinted a bit.
> >
> > Does anyone here know the place of re in the history?
> >
> > Later, Gill went off for a sabbatical at Yorktown Heights and came back to complain about having
> > to use SOS on the mainframe. He reported, however, that global search and replace was very fast.
> >
> > -L
> >
> > Also a few years later I got Dave Conroy’s version of microemacs. I complained about the key bindings and he told me to use the “change configuration” command, or cc.
> >
>
> --
> voice: +1.512.784.7526 e-mail: sauer@technologists.com
> fax: +1.512.346.5240 Web: https://technologists.com/sauer/
> Facebook/Google/Twitter: CharlesHSauer
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 291 bytes --] One called ned? It did something unusual to handle > 80 long lines. I think it came off a DECUS tape. I only lasted a week and went back to SOS. Teco was painful. I felt I was being laughed at. I have the manual still and ran a port on BSD for a while but I wound up laughing at myself. G [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 409 bytes --]
Did anyone within the Bell System ever use a screen editor called 'se'? (NOT related to the Georgia Tech se editor [se-editor.org]). I used this on a USG UNIX 4.0 system ~ 1982 when I did some contract programming at Southern Bell. I think it was originally written for the Vax but it had been squeezed to run on a PDP-11/70 also. I've mentioned this in the past, but it seems to been covered over by the sands of time, and that nobody else ever used it. Arnold
> From: George Michaelson > Teco was painful. Some of us can recall when the _only_ choices for editing on UNIX (on the PWB1 systems at MIT) were 'ed' and TECO! But to add some real history (not just the usual low S/N flaming about people's opinions of various relatively recent software, which is way too common on this list), the guys at MIT in DSSR/RTS (the group which later did the 68K version of PCC), who had done the port of PDP-11 TECO (in MACRO-11) from the Delphi system at MIT (which preceded adoption of UNIX there) - a comment in one source file alludes to Delphi, so that's where it came from, to UNIX (I think this TECO was written there, and was not a port of a DEC one, since it's all in lower case, and doesn't have other DEC stylisms), after the port, added a '^R mode' similar to the one added to the PDP-10 ITS TECO and used there to write EMACS (in TECO's usual 'line noise' code - historical aside: at one point there was a whole 'Ivory' package for ITS TECO which could 'purify' ITS TECO code so that one copy in core [actual, real core!] could be shared by multiple processes). That was used to write an EMACS-like package for the PDP-11 UNIX TECO (but much simpler than real EMACS), which we used for quite a while before Montgomery EMACS for UNIX showed up. The full dump of the MIT-CSR PWB1 UNIX system which I retrieved has all the sources and documentation for that TECO, and the ^R-mode code, etc. If anyone is interested in seeing it (or maybe even playing with it, which will need the UNIX MACRO-11), let me know, and I'll upload it. Noel PS: Speaking of the full dump of the MIT-CSR PWB1 UNIX system, I was poking around it a couple of days ago, and I found V6 'multiplexor' kernel drivers - mpio.c and mpx.c, etc - I think thay 'fell off the back of a truck' at Bell, like a lot of other stuff we weren't supposed to have, like the circuit design tools, etc. I'm not sure if I have the user programs to go with them; I think I may have found some of them for Paul Ruizendaal a while back, but the memory has faded. Again, if interested, let me know.
Be careful, those early multiplexer attempts by Chesson were very
buggy. I bounced off them pretty hard, and greg and I had long
debugging sessions trying to get ur-Jerq up reliably on them. The
pains were one component of dmr proposing streams* as another model.
I was using the v7 ones; the v6 ones must be even buggier.
-rob
* Or as USG later dubbed them, STREAMS.
On Tue, Mar 29, 2022 at 9:40 PM Noel Chiappa <jnc@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> wrote:
>
> > From: George Michaelson
>
> > Teco was painful.
>
> Some of us can recall when the _only_ choices for editing on UNIX (on the
> PWB1 systems at MIT) were 'ed' and TECO!
>
> But to add some real history (not just the usual low S/N flaming about
> people's opinions of various relatively recent software, which is way too
> common on this list), the guys at MIT in DSSR/RTS (the group which later did
> the 68K version of PCC), who had done the port of PDP-11 TECO (in MACRO-11)
> from the Delphi system at MIT (which preceded adoption of UNIX there) - a
> comment in one source file alludes to Delphi, so that's where it came from, to
> UNIX (I think this TECO was written there, and was not a port of a DEC one,
> since it's all in lower case, and doesn't have other DEC stylisms), after the
> port, added a '^R mode' similar to the one added to the PDP-10 ITS TECO and
> used there to write EMACS (in TECO's usual 'line noise' code - historical
> aside: at one point there was a whole 'Ivory' package for ITS TECO which could
> 'purify' ITS TECO code so that one copy in core [actual, real core!] could be
> shared by multiple processes). That was used to write an EMACS-like package
> for the PDP-11 UNIX TECO (but much simpler than real EMACS), which we used for
> quite a while before Montgomery EMACS for UNIX showed up.
>
> The full dump of the MIT-CSR PWB1 UNIX system which I retrieved has all the
> sources and documentation for that TECO, and the ^R-mode code, etc. If anyone
> is interested in seeing it (or maybe even playing with it, which will need
> the UNIX MACRO-11), let me know, and I'll upload it.
>
> Noel
>
> PS: Speaking of the full dump of the MIT-CSR PWB1 UNIX system, I was poking
> around it a couple of days ago, and I found V6 'multiplexor' kernel drivers -
> mpio.c and mpx.c, etc - I think thay 'fell off the back of a truck' at Bell,
> like a lot of other stuff we weren't supposed to have, like the circuit design
> tools, etc. I'm not sure if I have the user programs to go with them; I think
> I may have found some of them for Paul Ruizendaal a while back, but the memory
> has faded. Again, if interested, let me know.
Hi, there are s variants of se out there. Only one known to me git://github.com/screen-editor/se.git https://github.com/screen-editor/se Von: Lawrence Stewart <stewart@serissa.com> Datum: 29.03.2022 02:31:14 An: TUHS@tuhs.org Betreff: [TUHS] Old screen editors At the Stanford Information Systems Lab while I was there 1976-81, we had a series of PDP-11s. The first one I remember was an 11/34 running V6 and later V7. It was later upgraded to, I think a /45 and finally a /70. At first everyone used ed, then Prof. John Gill hacked it to add a command, I think ‘%’ that was the equivalent of .-10,.+10p which on our 9600 baud Hazeltine’s was a glimpse of the future. At some point we got ex/vi, but before that we got the “Rand Editor” re, which was a perfectly functional screen editor, if you squinted a bit. Does anyone here know the place of re in the history? Later, Gill went off for a sabbatical at Yorktown Heights and came back to complain about having to use SOS on the mainframe. He reported, however, that global search and replace was very fast. -L Also a few years later I got Dave Conroy’s version of microemacs. I complained about the key bindings and he told me to use the “change configuration” command, or cc.
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1124 bytes --] On Tue, Mar 29, 2022 at 4:31 AM Rob Pike <robpike@gmail.com> wrote: > I used SOS a bit, but did anyone use Stopgap itself, or only its son? > I was going to ask the same question. Funny, I still often (tend) to use line numbers to do multi-line operations not marks - probably because SOS was one of the first editors I learned and first I learned to use really well. Now here is where my memory is hazy. I do remember using SOS on the PDP-10s which had mostly glass TTYs, but for some reason I have memories of using it on an ASR-33 on the TSS/360 - which must be wrong. I thinking, there probably had to have been an IBM editor similar to it that I'm confusing with the TOPS/TENEX. I also have no memories of what editor we used on the original VMS V1.0 machine -- it must have been a member of the TECO family, although again I want to say we had something like SOS. I do remember that learning ed(1) on UNIX was a piece of cake and immediately loved regex for patterns. I was still doing some PDP-10 hacking for the CS-Dept in those days, and bitching that I wanted ed(1) on the 10s after I mastered it. Clem [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 2613 bytes --]
This is the Georgia Tech 'se' screen editor, originally written in
Ratfor as an extension of the Software Tool editor. It was ported to
Unix by Dan Forsyth and to termcap/terminfo by me.
Dan Cort brought it into the 21st century. It's not related to 's'
or any other previous screen editor.
Arnold
"Thomas Paulsen" <thomas.paulsen@firemail.de> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> there are s variants of se out there. Only one known to me
> git://github.com/screen-editor/se.git
> https://github.com/screen-editor/se
>
>
>
>
> Von: Lawrence Stewart <stewart@serissa.com>
> Datum: 29.03.2022 02:31:14
> An: TUHS@tuhs.org
> Betreff: [TUHS] Old screen editors
>
> At the Stanford Information Systems Lab while I was there 1976-81, we had
> a series of PDP-11s. The first one I remember was an 11/34 running V6 and
> later V7. It was later upgraded to, I think a /45 and finally a /70.
>
> At first everyone used ed, then Prof. John Gill hacked it to add a command,
> I think ‘%’ that was the equivalent of .-10,.+10p which on our 9600 baud
> Hazeltine’s was a glimpse of the future.
>
> At some point we got ex/vi, but before that we got the “Rand Editor” re,
> which was a perfectly
> functional screen editor, if you squinted a bit.
>
> Does anyone here know the place of re in the history?
>
> Later, Gill went off for a sabbatical at Yorktown Heights and came back to
> complain about having
> to use SOS on the mainframe. He reported, however, that global search and
> replace was very fast.
>
> -L
>
> Also a few years later I got Dave Conroy’s version of microemacs. I complained
> about the key bindings and he told me to use the “change configuration” command,
> or cc.
>
>
>
>
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2782 bytes --] Check Paul Cantrell's VTECO - Video Teco Manual <http://www.copters.com/teco.html> where has the sources here Video Teco Sourceforge Masters <http://videoteco.sourceforge.net/> Ward had a nice history here: TecoEditor <http://c2.com/wiki/remodel/?TecoEditor> - worth reading - there are some wonderful quotes. BTW I agree with Ward, while Ed Post was mostly right in his "real Programmer' don't use Pascal" tome (also a classic read), but real TECO users do know what typing their name will do ;-) On Tue, Mar 29, 2022 at 6:39 AM Noel Chiappa <jnc@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> wrote: > > From: George Michaelson > > > Teco was painful. > > Some of us can recall when the _only_ choices for editing on UNIX (on the > PWB1 systems at MIT) were 'ed' and TECO! > > But to add some real history (not just the usual low S/N flaming about > people's opinions of various relatively recent software, which is way too > common on this list), the guys at MIT in DSSR/RTS (the group which later > did > the 68K version of PCC), who had done the port of PDP-11 TECO (in MACRO-11) > from the Delphi system at MIT (which preceded adoption of UNIX there) - a > comment in one source file alludes to Delphi, so that's where it came > from, to > UNIX (I think this TECO was written there, and was not a port of a DEC one, > since it's all in lower case, and doesn't have other DEC stylisms), after > the > port, added a '^R mode' similar to the one added to the PDP-10 ITS TECO and > used there to write EMACS (in TECO's usual 'line noise' code - historical > aside: at one point there was a whole 'Ivory' package for ITS TECO which > could > 'purify' ITS TECO code so that one copy in core [actual, real core!] could > be > shared by multiple processes). That was used to write an EMACS-like package > for the PDP-11 UNIX TECO (but much simpler than real EMACS), which we used > for > quite a while before Montgomery EMACS for UNIX showed up. > > The full dump of the MIT-CSR PWB1 UNIX system which I retrieved has all the > sources and documentation for that TECO, and the ^R-mode code, etc. If > anyone > is interested in seeing it (or maybe even playing with it, which will need > the UNIX MACRO-11), let me know, and I'll upload it. > > Noel > > PS: Speaking of the full dump of the MIT-CSR PWB1 UNIX system, I was poking > around it a couple of days ago, and I found V6 'multiplexor' kernel > drivers - > mpio.c and mpx.c, etc - I think thay 'fell off the back of a truck' at > Bell, > like a lot of other stuff we weren't supposed to have, like the circuit > design > tools, etc. I'm not sure if I have the user programs to go with them; I > think > I may have found some of them for Paul Ruizendaal a while back, but the > memory > has faded. Again, if interested, let me know. > [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 3606 bytes --]
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1056 bytes --] Arnold, I agree, I do remember seeing it on what I think was the PWB 4.0 tape. IMHO: it was before cshell, termcap, vi et al was released inside of the rest of the Bell System and there seemed to be sometimes "SW from BSD be bad/crude" 'tude. IIRC ber and mmp must have had it running on the Marx's brothers systems in Whippany. But he had vi, so I personally never used it. @Mary Ann - this would have been around the time you were in Columbus and starting the terminfo work. Do you have any memories? On Tue, Mar 29, 2022 at 5:29 AM <arnold@skeeve.com> wrote: > Did anyone within the Bell System ever use a screen editor called 'se'? > (NOT related to the Georgia Tech se editor [se-editor.org]). > > I used this on a USG UNIX 4.0 system ~ 1982 when I did some contract > programming at Southern Bell. I think it was originally written for > the Vax but it had been squeezed to run on a PDP-11/70 also. > > I've mentioned this in the past, but it seems to been covered over > by the sands of time, and that nobody else ever used it. > > Arnold > [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 1761 bytes --]
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1674 bytes --] se? this may be a consequence for using such a bland name for a screen editor, but i wrote a screen editor called ’se’ in 1981-83, just after we had moved from piscataway to murray hill. it was part of an effort to do office automation style products for Unix, and came in around the time Unix transitioned from System III through System 4 through the early days of System V. my se was not very good, but i did have denis ritchie as an early tester. > On Mar 29, 2022, at 6:45 AM, Clem Cole <clemc@ccc.com> wrote: > > Arnold, I agree, I do remember seeing it on what I think was the PWB 4.0 tape. IMHO: it was before cshell, termcap, vi et al was released inside of the rest of the Bell System and there seemed to be sometimes "SW from BSD be bad/crude" 'tude. IIRC ber and mmp must have had it running on the Marx's brothers systems in Whippany. But he had vi, so I personally never used it. > > @Mary Ann - this would have been around the time you were in Columbus and starting the terminfo work. Do you have any memories? > > On Tue, Mar 29, 2022 at 5:29 AM <arnold@skeeve.com <mailto:arnold@skeeve.com>> wrote: > Did anyone within the Bell System ever use a screen editor called 'se'? > (NOT related to the Georgia Tech se editor [se-editor.org <http://se-editor.org/>]). > > I used this on a USG UNIX 4.0 system ~ 1982 when I did some contract > programming at Southern Bell. I think it was originally written for > the Vax but it had been squeezed to run on a PDP-11/70 also. > > I've mentioned this in the past, but it seems to been covered over > by the sands of time, and that nobody else ever used it. > > Arnold [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 3099 bytes --]
Cool! I bet this was it! It was on a System 4 system.
The commands were entered at the top of the screen. I remember almost
nothing else about it.
Is there any chance you still have the source?
Thanks,
Arnold
Andrew Hume <andrew@humeweb.com> wrote:
> se?
>
> this may be a consequence for using such a bland name for a screen editor,
> but i wrote a screen editor called ’se’ in 1981-83, just after we had moved
> from piscataway to murray hill.
>
> it was part of an effort to do office automation style products for Unix,
> and came in around the time Unix transitioned from System III through
> System 4 through the early days of System V.
>
> my se was not very good, but i did have denis ritchie as an early tester.
>
> > On Mar 29, 2022, at 6:45 AM, Clem Cole <clemc@ccc.com> wrote:
> >
> > Arnold, I agree, I do remember seeing it on what I think was the PWB 4.0 tape. IMHO: it was before cshell, termcap, vi et al was released inside of the rest of the Bell System and there seemed to be sometimes "SW from BSD be bad/crude" 'tude. IIRC ber and mmp must have had it running on the Marx's brothers systems in Whippany. But he had vi, so I personally never used it.
> >
> > @Mary Ann - this would have been around the time you were in Columbus and starting the terminfo work. Do you have any memories?
> >
> > On Tue, Mar 29, 2022 at 5:29 AM <arnold@skeeve.com <mailto:arnold@skeeve.com>> wrote:
> > Did anyone within the Bell System ever use a screen editor called 'se'?
> > (NOT related to the Georgia Tech se editor [se-editor.org <http://se-editor.org/>]).
> >
> > I used this on a USG UNIX 4.0 system ~ 1982 when I did some contract
> > programming at Southern Bell. I think it was originally written for
> > the Vax but it had been squeezed to run on a PDP-11/70 also.
> >
> > I've mentioned this in the past, but it seems to been covered over
> > by the sands of time, and that nobody else ever used it.
> >
> > Arnold
>
alas, no.
it should have been on some official source tapes, tho.
it was part of some office automation set of software;
maybe that was mentioned in the tapes.
i too remember nothing about it. outside of doing it
because management wanted it, i never optionally used it.
> On Mar 29, 2022, at 7:35 AM, arnold@skeeve.com wrote:
>
> Cool! I bet this was it! It was on a System 4 system.
>
> The commands were entered at the top of the screen. I remember almost
> nothing else about it.
>
> Is there any chance you still have the source?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Arnold
>
> Andrew Hume <andrew@humeweb.com> wrote:
>
>> se?
>>
>> this may be a consequence for using such a bland name for a screen editor,
>> but i wrote a screen editor called ’se’ in 1981-83, just after we had moved
>> from piscataway to murray hill.
>>
>> it was part of an effort to do office automation style products for Unix,
>> and came in around the time Unix transitioned from System III through
>> System 4 through the early days of System V.
>>
>> my se was not very good, but i did have denis ritchie as an early tester.
On 29/03/22, Noel Chiappa wrote:
> The full dump of the MIT-CSR PWB1 UNIX system which I retrieved has all the
> sources and documentation for that TECO, and the ^R-mode code, etc. If anyone
> is interested in seeing it (or maybe even playing with it, which will need
> the UNIX MACRO-11), let me know, and I'll upload it.
By 'upload it' do you mean the full dump or TECO only? That system
sounds very interesting and I'd love to see the whole thing.
aap
> From: Angelo Papenhoff > By 'upload it' do you mean the full dump or TECO only? At this point in time, not the full dump (below for why). I have previously uploaded lots of other bits, e.g. (looks quickly): the TCP/IP that was written for it (with the TCP in the 'user process', making for a small system, good for -11/23's and -11/40's); Montgomery EMACS; TECO (already done - along with the MACRO-11, but I still need to do the linker, and the BCPL compiler one needs for the linker). > That system sounds very interesting and I'd love to see the whole thing. Unfortunately, the dump includes _everything_ on the system, including personal email, etc, etc. So I have to curate it anything I upload. I suppose I should put together an 'index page', which lists (and links to) everything that has been uploaded? Noel
I never really used it but i do remember an editor called le on the v7 interdata/Perkin Elmer i used at Leeds poly. I read electronics and we all used vi, the computer science people at a different campus used le on their Interdata; no idea why. anyone any background on le? ihave not seen sight nor sound of it since. -Steve
> From: Clem Cole > Ward had a nice history here: TecoEditor > <http://c2.com/wiki/remodel/?TecoEditor> - worth reading Yeah, pretty good. A couple of minor points: "TECO Madness -- a moment of convenience, a lifetime of regret" - I have seen this attributed to Dave Moon. "the [ITS] version of TECO was used by Richard Stallman to implement the original Emacs Editor" - accurate if read _just_ the right way, but incorrect in the 'naive' reading. Stallman didn't _originate_ the body of stuff that eventually turned into ITS EMACS, although he did take over maintenance of it once it was rolling; and later wrote Gnu Emacs from scratch himself. The mostly accurate one-line history is the one given in Dan Weinreb's blog "the original (TECO-based) Emacs was created and designed by Guy L. Steele Jr. and David Moon. After they had it working, and it had become established as the standard text editor at the AI lab, Stallman took over its maintenance", to which Moon added "in all fairness I have to say that Stallman greatly improved Emacs after he 'liberated' it from Guy and me". More people were involved than Moon, Steele and Stallman, though; a lot of people were writing stuff before Stallman took over; and even after that, others (like Eugene Ciccarelli, a member of the CSR group) helped a lot with ITS EMACS. Stallman's EMACS paper ("sEMACS: The Extensible, Customizable, Self-Documenting Display Editor") contains _many_ statements that are _demonstrably_ wrong, e.g. "it is simply impossible to implement an extensible system in [languages like PASCAL or C]" ... "This eliminates most popular programming languages except LISP, APL and SNOBOL." Given that I've been using a heavily customized Epsilon for decades, which is written completely in EEL (a dialect of C enhanced with editing primitives like buffers, etc), that's clerly very confused. Noel
On Tue, 29 Mar 2022, Henry Mensch wrote: > in the US and the UK, on different weekends afaik. Not to mention AU/NZ; countries have different rules (if they have DST at all); I'm always amused by people who think that their country's local customs (not just DST) are world-wide. > - Henry Mensch > > On March 28, 2022 21:21:12 Steve Nickolas <usotsuki@buric.co> wrote: > > > On Tue, 29 Mar 2022, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: > > > >> On Monday, 28 March 2022 at 15:24:38 -0700, Bakul Shah wrote: > >>> On Mar 28, 2022, at 2:07 PM, Warren Toomey via TUHS <tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org> wrote: > >>>> > >>>> ???Just checking that the TUHS list hasn't gone belly up, as it's been pretty > >>>> quiet for a week :-) > >>> > >>> My impression is that there is much less traffic on pretty much all > >>> the mailing lists I am on and I am wondering why. > >> > >> Yes, I had noticed that too. I had assumed a US holiday or some > >> such. Was there one? > >> > >> Greg > > > > Not that I'm aware of... just the clocks going forward. > > > > -uso. > > > > > -- Dave
> Stallman didn't _originate_ the body of stuff that eventually turned into ITS
> EMACS, although he did take over maintenance of it once it was rolling; and
> later wrote Gnu Emacs from scratch himself.
I though early GNU Emacs was based on Gosling Emacs (aka gosmacs).
>
>Stallman didn't _originate_ the body of stuff that eventually turned into ITS
>EMACS, although he did take over maintenance of it once it was rolling; and
>later wrote Gnu Emacs from scratch himself.
Well, even that is a bit inaccurate. He implemented emacs by wrapping
new code around James Gosling's (also licensed as Unipress) EMACS.
After a bit of a protracted argument, he finally wrote his own stuff to
get the infringing code out.
> that I've been using
> heavily customized Epsilon for decades, which is written completely in EEL
> dialect of C enhanced with editing primitives like buffers, etc), that's clearly very confused.
I was an Epsilon user as well.
The "self documenting" aspects of EMACS are kind of laughable as well. I'll start with using backspace for the help key and go from there :)
Was it one of the awful Pukin-Elmer terminals. I hated those things.
Then there was the Rand/Interactive Systems INed. We were stuck using
that when I worked for Martin.
I never learned vi. If there is no EMACS-like thing on the machine,
then I just use ed (sometimes I can get by with ex/vi in line mode).
The funniest editor story I have is one day I'm working at Martin.
Having actually heard of UNIX before (let alone having done kernel and
other work) I was sort of the in house expert. One day one of my
coworkers calls out to me:
"What's all this Bell System crud in the editor?"
I'm thinking, well, it's all Bell System crud. What specifically are
we talking about. I walk around to see his terminal and find he has
been typing 1 repeatedly to the shell prompt invoking our /usr/bin/1
that said "One Bell System, It Works."
After that I modded the program to say "You're not in the editor,
Bernie."
It was almost as much fun as putting "You might have mail." in motd.
------ Original Message ------
From: "Steve Simon" <steve@quintile.net>
To: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org
Sent: 3/29/2022 3:09:52 PM
Subject: Re: [TUHS] Old screen editors
>
>I never really used it but i do remember an editor called le on the v7 interdata/Perkin Elmer i used at Leeds poly.
>
>I read electronics and we all used vi, the computer science people at a different campus used le on their Interdata; no idea why.
>
>anyone any background on le? ihave not seen sight nor sound of it since.
>
>-Steve
>
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 924 bytes --] On Tue, Mar 29, 2022 at 4:46 PM Dave Horsfall <dave@horsfall.org> wrote: > I'm always amused by people who think that their country's local > customs (not just DST) are world-wide. > THEODOTUS. Caesar: you are a stranger here, and not conversant with our laws. The kings and queens of Egypt may not marry except with their own royal blood. Ptolemy and Cleopatra are born king and consort just as they are born brother and sister.BRITANNUS (shocked). Caesar: this is not proper. THEODOTUS (outraged). How! CAESAR (recovering his self-possession). Pardon him. Theodotus: he is a barbarian, and thinks that the customs of his tribe and island are the laws of nature.BRITANNUS. On the contrary, Caesar, it is these Egyptians who are barbarians; and you do wrong to encourage them. I say it is a scandal. ― George Bernard Shaw, Caesar and Cleopatra <https://www.goodreads.com/work/quotes/1689832> [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 3331 bytes --]
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2054 bytes --] Yes, awful terminals demand different editors. At Amdahl, we had nothing but 3270s for the mainframe UNIX. Dan Walsh wrote an editor - "ned" - which allowed full screen editing. It was actually quite nice, considering. It allowed any "ed" commands in a command line, but ISPF-like block editing elsewhere. I wrote the 3270 driver which allowed "almost" full duplex interaction with UNIX. On Tue, Mar 29, 2022 at 2:47 PM Ron Natalie <ron@ronnatalie.com> wrote: > Was it one of the awful Pukin-Elmer terminals. I hated those things. > > Then there was the Rand/Interactive Systems INed. We were stuck using > that when I worked for Martin. > > I never learned vi. If there is no EMACS-like thing on the machine, > then I just use ed (sometimes I can get by with ex/vi in line mode). > > The funniest editor story I have is one day I'm working at Martin. > Having actually heard of UNIX before (let alone having done kernel and > other work) I was sort of the in house expert. One day one of my > coworkers calls out to me: > > "What's all this Bell System crud in the editor?" > > I'm thinking, well, it's all Bell System crud. What specifically are > we talking about. I walk around to see his terminal and find he has > been typing 1 repeatedly to the shell prompt invoking our /usr/bin/1 > that said "One Bell System, It Works." > > After that I modded the program to say "You're not in the editor, > Bernie." > > It was almost as much fun as putting "You might have mail." in motd. > > ------ Original Message ------ > From: "Steve Simon" <steve@quintile.net> > To: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org > Sent: 3/29/2022 3:09:52 PM > Subject: Re: [TUHS] Old screen editors > > > > >I never really used it but i do remember an editor called le on the v7 > interdata/Perkin Elmer i used at Leeds poly. > > > >I read electronics and we all used vi, the computer science people at a > different campus used le on their Interdata; no idea why. > > > >anyone any background on le? ihave not seen sight nor sound of it since. > > > >-Steve > > > > -- - Tom [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 3174 bytes --]
se(1) is in my UNIX 5.0 manual, which was the internal version of System
V release 1. It makes sense that it would be the one Andrew wrote.
My recollection is that se was the result of Not Invented Here. There
was lots of demand for vi in the internal USG version of UNIX, and it
was present in exptools, but not the official distribution of UNIX.
(Lots of demand for emacs, too, also in exptools.) Rather than adopt one
of them, se was written. I think it appeared about UNIX 4.2.
My UNIX 5.0 manual also has vi(1). Once vi was installed, demand for se
went away. I'm not sure when it was dropped, but it's not in my SVID.
Mary Ann
On 3/29/22 07:42, Andrew Hume wrote:
> alas, no.
> it should have been on some official source tapes, tho.
> it was part of some office automation set of software;
> maybe that was mentioned in the tapes.
>
> i too remember nothing about it. outside of doing it
> because management wanted it, i never optionally used it.
>
>> On Mar 29, 2022, at 7:35 AM, arnold@skeeve.com wrote:
>>
>> Cool! I bet this was it! It was on a System 4 system.
>>
>> The commands were entered at the top of the screen. I remember almost
>> nothing else about it.
>>
>> Is there any chance you still have the source?
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Arnold
>>
>> Andrew Hume <andrew@humeweb.com> wrote:
>>
>>> se?
>>>
>>> this may be a consequence for using such a bland name for a screen editor,
>>> but i wrote a screen editor called ’se’ in 1981-83, just after we had moved
>>> from piscataway to murray hill.
>>>
>>> it was part of an effort to do office automation style products for Unix,
>>> and came in around the time Unix transitioned from System III through
>>> System 4 through the early days of System V.
>>>
>>> my se was not very good, but i did have denis ritchie as an early tester.
So the question is, does anyone have a UNIX 4.0 source tape?
Otherwise, I think it probably really is lost in the sands
of time.
Thanks,
Arnold
Andrew Hume <andrew@humeweb.com> wrote:
> alas, no.
> it should have been on some official source tapes, tho.
> it was part of some office automation set of software;
> maybe that was mentioned in the tapes.
>
> i too remember nothing about it. outside of doing it
> because management wanted it, i never optionally used it.
>
> > On Mar 29, 2022, at 7:35 AM, arnold@skeeve.com wrote:
> >
> > Cool! I bet this was it! It was on a System 4 system.
> >
> > The commands were entered at the top of the screen. I remember almost
> > nothing else about it.
> >
> > Is there any chance you still have the source?
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Arnold
> >
> > Andrew Hume <andrew@humeweb.com> wrote:
> >
> >> se?
> >>
> >> this may be a consequence for using such a bland name for a screen editor,
> >> but i wrote a screen editor called ’se’ in 1981-83, just after we had moved
> >> from piscataway to murray hill.
> >>
> >> it was part of an effort to do office automation style products for Unix,
> >> and came in around the time Unix transitioned from System III through
> >> System 4 through the early days of System V.
> >>
> >> my se was not very good, but i did have denis ritchie as an early tester.
>
Noel Chiappa writes: > historical aside: at one point there was a whole 'Ivory' package for > ITS TECO which could 'purify' ITS TECO code so that one copy in core > [actual, real core!] could be shared by multiple processes. There still is an Ivory package, and it's used by a few EMACS libraries. > That was used to write an EMACS-like package for the PDP-11 UNIX TECO > (but much simpler than real EMACS), which we used for quite a while > before Montgomery EMACS for UNIX showed up. ObUnix. Montgomery EMACS now shows up again, thanks to Noel. I put a copy here, which also references the origin: https://github.com/larsbrinkhoff/emacs-history/tree/sources/ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/%7Ejnc/tech/unix/emacs Montgomery wrote about the history behind his editor: https://github.com/larsbrinkhoff/emacs-history/blob/sources/docs/Montgomery%20Emacs%20History.txt
Ron Natalie wrote: > Noel Chiappa wrote: >>Stallman didn't _originate_ the body of stuff that eventually turned >>into ITS EMACS, although he did take over maintenance of it once it >>was rolling; and later wrote Gnu Emacs from scratch himself. > > Well, even that is a bit inaccurate. He implemented emacs by wrapping > new code around James Gosling's (also licensed as Unipress) EMACS. Here is GNU Emacs 13 with Gosling code: https://github.com/larsbrinkhoff/emacs-history/blob/sources/decuslib.com/decus/vax85b/gnuemax/emacs/src/display.c
> Well, even that is a bit inaccurate. He implemented emacs by wrapping
> new code around James Gosling's (also licensed as Unipress) EMACS.
its generally very well known that RMS hired a programmer doing that. Himself, he only contributed some elisp code.
Hi Lawrence, > At some point we got ex/vi, but before that we got the “Rand Editor” > re, which was a perfectly functional screen editor, if you squinted a > bit. > > Does anyone here know the place of re in the history? RAND's re from 1974 had become Ned, for New Editor by 1977 when Ned's author, Walt Bilofsky, later founder of The Software Toolworks, wrote RAND report R2176. https://www.rand.org/pubs/reports/R2176.html Over the past few years Ned, a text editor utilizing the full capabilities of the CRT display, has been under development and in use at The Rand Corporation... The Ned editor runs on the PDP-11 series of computers under the UNIX operating system. It uses a CRT display to provide a two-dimensional window into a text file... ...rectangular portions of text may be opened, deleted, and moved about... The set of operations may be expanded by user-provided or system-provided text-processing programs... The screen may be divided into several editing windows... Chapter 3 has the history of IDA-CRD → Yale Editor ‘E’ → RAND editor ‘re’ → Ned. -- Cheers, Ralph.