From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HTML_FONT_LOW_CONTRAST,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 15311 invoked from network); 28 Feb 2023 19:42:38 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (50.116.15.146) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 28 Feb 2023 19:42:38 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A8BC242280; Wed, 1 Mar 2023 05:42:33 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-yw1-x112e.google.com (mail-yw1-x112e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::112e]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 642EF42253 for ; Wed, 1 Mar 2023 05:42:28 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-yw1-x112e.google.com with SMTP id 00721157ae682-536c02eea4dso304857587b3.4 for ; Tue, 28 Feb 2023 11:42:28 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ccc.com; s=google; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=WCYFRDX2PF6RiFO7Qki1Hifk7i2iM53chsc1VhKNX0w=; b=MH6ofrxGqioyNO0wwBJWafQ3U9cJtRajobvwe5O+130hxUor7nPbIIVcfu6LyAFQgv gqjiqvcWcHYRV63/RjB3x9GHmeUa1Ac7Ilz9YF9mKqkkQeYpbglzCiVHFVwq7PbbAgms e4yTEKAM2nRT3tnqXSBZoSw/xeh4vB5Pm3pcU= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=WCYFRDX2PF6RiFO7Qki1Hifk7i2iM53chsc1VhKNX0w=; b=0005P9JdCgBANPQEyovH0Dz1mdMBOurTbFj7PHlZm8fCsdMHY0My8sDgM610Hf3muj LYzqZpqI/zWeymUFb1EqD5fVKe17OQSg2jsqXk4V9q7s51Q9eLpQntRHqCetQXY8AG4G JSTi9GfsYkPIM7oQ/uj2SxoAGK8C6C+nFSin/OkqsX7zx67+WCyVHNwjMu0tlPJ/vKCn q3vCIokJAdDwV5kJEuYY6VS5121NAlFvfdCh12v6eHny7svaXKLVz418Ln66vzv2Dmt5 z4URa/yOdY28xY8kxHJ4nrqsEyMb1crxg385xXoPRVq5acKd3X1c6GGeL1pKuFlF9xr2 ZDGQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AO0yUKW6IYKbDBxGe/V0s3bamgVrLLqt/iSFPajHMHl/MhqVtrMD0sQQ 9rtdCi6czE0Cf2WMHsKz2X1v2YJlJ3u+vgZXq2TD6Ja/6LV9nSjYKG8= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AK7set9Ga0RPUCmySIJeZpNJ5ElyJ2MBgeIXnK9+VE4pVez9583JlIhRymIvIfDosjOfoULF4PbBop+5YXpelLZfQx0= X-Received: by 2002:a81:b705:0:b0:533:9252:32fa with SMTP id v5-20020a81b705000000b00533925232famr2288573ywh.4.1677613347402; Tue, 28 Feb 2023 11:42:27 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Clem Cole Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2023 14:42:00 -0500 Message-ID: To: segaloco Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000a48f3c05f5c7cb16" Message-ID-Hash: SPENVRE3KKLLSLR6EHEH7HDS4TXQBARC X-Message-ID-Hash: SPENVRE3KKLLSLR6EHEH7HDS4TXQBARC X-MailFrom: clemc@ccc.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: Jonathan Gray , tuhs@tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: Any Bell 8-bit UNIX Efforts? List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: --000000000000a48f3c05f5c7cb16 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Just so you know, the folks in Western Electric's Teletype team retargeted the Ritchie compiler to become a Z80 cross-compiler/assembler dev tools suite. That implementation was floating around the Bell System in the 76/77/78 time frame. I know Karn had brought it with him and started using it for his original KA9Q IP/TCP implementation, initially for his CP/M box and ham radio system; (as he ran it as a cross compiler on my 11/34 at CMU's Mellon Institute -- I trade cycles for access to the compiler). I don't know if anyone ever tried to use the Teletype Z80 C compiler to build a UNIX or UNIX-like port for the z80 with it. I have since forgotten how complete it was. A bit later, Loer Zohlman wrote BDS C, which was pretty darned good/fairly complete C implementation for the time; and a few years back, he put it in the Public Domain [ you can download it from his website]. Missing/lost is/was the UNIX-like system they were working on to go along with the compiler - which I am trying to remember if it was quite complete/much less made it out for sale like his compiler was at the time. However, at an early Boston USENIX, Leor had it running "good enough" that he brought it and showed it in his room on a dual floppy Z80 IMSAI box with some 4K bank switching HW (I don't remember how much memory - probably 128Kish). I was there when he demo'ed it to Dennis and a few other hackers. Dennis's response at the time was it reminded him of the early UNIX efforts. I just thought it was pretty cool. A year or so later, Onyx folks brought their Z8000 based V7 system to USENIX, causing quite a stir =E1=90=A7 =E1=90=A7 =E1=90=A7 =E1=90=A7 On Tue, Feb 28, 2023 at 1:59=E2=80=AFPM segaloco via TUHS w= rote: > Sounds like Idris and uNIX are the closest we get with ex-Bell personnel > being involved with both projects. > > I haven't found anything in the surviving Bell streams that suggests any > 8-bit attempts internally, and various portability documents suggest 16-b= it > and 32-bit targets abound but nothing like a 6502 or Z80 running UNIX > inside Bell, again not that it would really be that worthwhile of an > experiment at the time given their focus on minis. Anywho, if anything > ever does show up in my study I'll happily share the details. > > - Matt G. > > ------- Original Message ------- > On Monday, February 27th, 2023 at 2:57 AM, Jonathan Gray > wrote: > > > > On Sat, Feb 25, 2023 at 07:48:45PM +0000, segaloco via TUHS wrote: > > > > > So in working on an unrelated 6502 project, I got to wondering about > > > UNIX on it and other 8-bits. Did some Googling, and while I was > > > able to turn up some attempts at UNIX-likes on 6502 as well as Z80, > > > the only one I found that might have some Bell connection is "uNIX" > > > as documented here: https://bitsavers.org/pdf/uNIX/uNIX_Jan82.pdf > > > > > > A forum post I read suggested those involved were some former Bell > > > folks from NJ. In any case, this begs the question for me: Were > > > there ever any serious attempts at an 8-bit UNIX in the labs or > > > Bell System at large? Certainly it would've provided quite the > > > challenge without much return compared with 16 and 32-bit efforts, > > > but does anyone know if, say, an LSX/Mini-UNIX-ish attempt was ever > > > made at the 6502, Z80, or other 8-bits? Thanks all! > > > > > > - Matt G. > > > > > > If by Bell connection you mean people. Plauger left in 1975, > > joined Yourdon Inc in 1975, started Whitesmiths Ltd in 1978[1]. > > Whitesmiths created Idris, a clone of Unix. > > > > "Idris can run comfortably where UNIX can't event fit: On an > > MC68000 with no memory management hardware, for example. > > On a bank-switched 8080 or Z80. Or on any LS-11 or PDP-11 > > with memory management." > > Whitesmiths advertisement in Computerworld, Mar 1983 [2]. > > > > Yourdon Inc, announced Omnix in 1980, a Unix-like system for Z80[3]. > > By 1981 it "had to be withdrawn when Yourdon were let down by its > > developers" [4]. > > > > [1] > https://indico.cern.ch/event/318305/attachments/612388/842557/PJPlauger-I= TSeminar-Fifty_years.pdf > > [2] https://books.google.com/books?id=3DRAe4jAHXAgwC&pg=3DPA50 > > [3] https://www.tuhs.org/Archive/Documentation/AUUGN/AUUGN-V02.3.pdf > > [4] https://dl.acm.org/doi/pdf/10.1145/1164679.1164681 > > > > The last article is "UNIX on a Micro" by Cornelia Boldyreff. > > It briefly mentions other 8-bit Unix-likes: Cromemco's Cromix, > > Thinker Toys/Morrow's Micronix, Technical Systems Consultants' UniFLEX. > --000000000000a48f3c05f5c7cb16 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Just so you know, the folks in Western Electric's T= eletype team retargeted the Ritchie compiler to become a Z80 cross-compiler= /assembler dev tools suite. That implementation was floating around=C2=A0th= e Bell System in the 76/77/78 time frame.=C2=A0 I know Karn had brought it = with him and started using it for his original KA9Q IP/TCP implementation, = initially for his CP/M box and ham radio system; (as he ran it as a cross c= ompiler on=C2=A0my 11/34 at CMU's Mellon Institute -- I trade cycles fo= r access to the compiler).=C2=A0 I don't know if anyone ever tried to u= se the Teletype Z80 C compiler to build a UNIX or UNIX-like port for the z8= 0 with it. I have since forgotten how complete it was.

A bit later, Loer Zohlman wrote=C2=A0BDS C,=C2=A0which was pretty darned good/fairly com= plete C implementation for the time; and a few years back, he put it in the= Public Domain [ you can download it from his website].=C2=A0 Missing/lost = is/was the UNIX-like system they were working on to go along with the compi= ler - which I am trying to remember if it was quite complete/much less made= it out for sale like his compiler was at the time.=C2=A0 However, at an ea= rly Boston USENIX, Leor had it running "good enough" that he brou= ght it and showed it in his room on a dual floppy Z80 IMSAI box=C2=A0with some 4= K bank switching HW (I don't remember how much memory - probably 128Kis= h).=C2=A0 I was there when he demo'ed it to Dennis and a few=C2=A0other= hackers.=C2=A0 Dennis's response at the time was it reminded him of th= e early UNIX efforts.=C2=A0 I just thought it was pretty cool.

=
A year or so later, Onyx folks brought their Z8000 based V7 system= to USENIX, causing quite a stir
3D""=E1=90=A7
3D""=E1=90= =A7
=E1=90=A7
3D""=E1=90=A7
On Tue, F= eb 28, 2023 at 1:59=E2=80=AFPM segaloco via TUHS <tuhs@tuhs.org> wrote:
Sounds like Idris and uNIX are th= e closest we get with ex-Bell personnel being involved with both projects.<= br>
I haven't found anything in the surviving Bell streams that suggests an= y 8-bit attempts internally, and various portability documents suggest 16-b= it and 32-bit targets abound but nothing like a 6502 or Z80 running UNIX in= side Bell, again not that it would really be that worthwhile of an experime= nt at the time given their focus on minis.=C2=A0 Anywho, if anything ever d= oes show up in my study I'll happily share the details.

- Matt G.

------- Original Message -------
On Monday, February 27th, 2023 at 2:57 AM, Jonathan Gray <jsg@jsg.id.au> wrote:


> On Sat, Feb 25, 2023 at 07:48:45PM +0000, segaloco via TUHS wrote:
>
> > So in working on an unrelated 6502 project, I got to wondering ab= out
> > UNIX on it and other 8-bits. Did some Googling, and while I was > > able to turn up some attempts at UNIX-likes on 6502 as well as Z8= 0,
> > the only one I found that might have some Bell connection is &quo= t;uNIX"
> > as documented here: https://bitsavers.org/pdf= /uNIX/uNIX_Jan82.pdf
> >
> > A forum post I read suggested those involved were some former Bel= l
> > folks from NJ. In any case, this begs the question for me: Were > > there ever any serious attempts at an 8-bit UNIX in the labs or > > Bell System at large? Certainly it would've provided quite th= e
> > challenge without much return compared with 16 and 32-bit efforts= ,
> > but does anyone know if, say, an LSX/Mini-UNIX-ish attempt was ev= er
> > made at the 6502, Z80, or other 8-bits? Thanks all!
> >
> > - Matt G.
>
>
> If by Bell connection you mean people. Plauger left in 1975,
> joined Yourdon Inc in 1975, started Whitesmiths Ltd in 1978[1].
> Whitesmiths created Idris, a clone of Unix.
>
> "Idris can run comfortably where UNIX can't event fit: On an<= br> > MC68000 with no memory management hardware, for example.
> On a bank-switched 8080 or Z80. Or on any LS-11 or PDP-11
> with memory management."
> Whitesmiths advertisement in Computerworld, Mar 1983 [2].
>
> Yourdon Inc, announced Omnix in 1980, a Unix-like system for Z80[3]. > By 1981 it "had to be withdrawn when Yourdon were let down by its=
> developers" [4].
>
> [1] https://indico.cern.ch/event/318305/attachments/612388/842557/PJPlaug= er-ITSeminar-Fifty_years.pdf
> [2] https://books.google.com/book= s?id=3DRAe4jAHXAgwC&pg=3DPA50
> [3] https://www.tuhs.org/Archiv= e/Documentation/AUUGN/AUUGN-V02.3.pdf
> [4] https://dl.acm.org/doi/pdf/10.1145/116467= 9.1164681
>
> The last article is "UNIX on a Micro" by Cornelia Boldyreff.=
> It briefly mentions other 8-bit Unix-likes: Cromemco's Cromix,
> Thinker Toys/Morrow's Micronix, Technical Systems Consultants'= UniFLEX.
--000000000000a48f3c05f5c7cb16--