* [TUHS] Any Bell 8-bit UNIX Efforts? @ 2023-02-25 19:48 segaloco via TUHS 2023-02-27 3:55 ` [TUHS] " Warner Losh 2023-02-27 10:57 ` Jonathan Gray 0 siblings, 2 replies; 21+ messages in thread From: segaloco via TUHS @ 2023-02-25 19:48 UTC (permalink / raw) To: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 791 bytes --] So in working on an unrelated 6502 project, I got to wondering about UNIX on it and other 8-bits. Did some Googling, and while I was able to turn up some attempts at UNIX-likes on 6502 as well as Z80, the only one I found that might have some Bell connection is "uNIX" as documented here: https://bitsavers.org/pdf/uNIX/uNIX_Jan82.pdf A forum post I read suggested those involved were some former Bell folks from NJ. In any case, this begs the question for me: Were there ever any serious attempts at an 8-bit UNIX in the labs or Bell System at large? Certainly it would've provided quite the challenge without much return compared with 16 and 32-bit efforts, but does anyone know if, say, an LSX/Mini-UNIX-ish attempt was ever made at the 6502, Z80, or other 8-bits? Thanks all! - Matt G. [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 1291 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* [TUHS] Re: Any Bell 8-bit UNIX Efforts? 2023-02-25 19:48 [TUHS] Any Bell 8-bit UNIX Efforts? segaloco via TUHS @ 2023-02-27 3:55 ` Warner Losh 2023-02-27 10:57 ` Jonathan Gray 1 sibling, 0 replies; 21+ messages in thread From: Warner Losh @ 2023-02-27 3:55 UTC (permalink / raw) To: segaloco; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1049 bytes --] On Sat, Feb 25, 2023 at 12:49 PM segaloco via TUHS <tuhs@tuhs.org> wrote: > So in working on an unrelated 6502 project, I got to wondering about UNIX > on it and other 8-bits. Did some Googling, and while I was able to turn up > some attempts at UNIX-likes on 6502 as well as Z80, the only one I found > that might have some Bell connection is "uNIX" as documented here: > https://bitsavers.org/pdf/uNIX/uNIX_Jan82.pdf > > A forum post I read suggested those involved were some former Bell folks > from NJ. In any case, this begs the question for me: Were there ever any > serious attempts at an 8-bit UNIX in the labs or Bell System at large? > Certainly it would've provided quite the challenge without much return > compared with 16 and 32-bit efforts, but does anyone know if, say, an > LSX/Mini-UNIX-ish attempt was ever made at the 6502, Z80, or other 8-bits? > Thanks all! > FUZIX is one that I'm aware of, but it's a rewrite, not a port: https://hackaday.com/2017/04/16/z80-fuzix-is-like-old-fashioned-unix/ Warner [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 1757 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* [TUHS] Re: Any Bell 8-bit UNIX Efforts? 2023-02-25 19:48 [TUHS] Any Bell 8-bit UNIX Efforts? segaloco via TUHS 2023-02-27 3:55 ` [TUHS] " Warner Losh @ 2023-02-27 10:57 ` Jonathan Gray 2023-02-28 18:59 ` segaloco via TUHS 1 sibling, 1 reply; 21+ messages in thread From: Jonathan Gray @ 2023-02-27 10:57 UTC (permalink / raw) To: segaloco; +Cc: tuhs On Sat, Feb 25, 2023 at 07:48:45PM +0000, segaloco via TUHS wrote: > So in working on an unrelated 6502 project, I got to wondering about > UNIX on it and other 8-bits. Did some Googling, and while I was > able to turn up some attempts at UNIX-likes on 6502 as well as Z80, > the only one I found that might have some Bell connection is "uNIX" > as documented here: https://bitsavers.org/pdf/uNIX/uNIX_Jan82.pdf > > A forum post I read suggested those involved were some former Bell > folks from NJ. In any case, this begs the question for me: Were > there ever any serious attempts at an 8-bit UNIX in the labs or > Bell System at large? Certainly it would've provided quite the > challenge without much return compared with 16 and 32-bit efforts, > but does anyone know if, say, an LSX/Mini-UNIX-ish attempt was ever > made at the 6502, Z80, or other 8-bits? Thanks all! > > - Matt G. If by Bell connection you mean people. Plauger left in 1975, joined Yourdon Inc in 1975, started Whitesmiths Ltd in 1978[1]. Whitesmiths created Idris, a clone of Unix. "Idris can run comfortably where UNIX can't event fit: On an MC68000 with no memory management hardware, for example. On a bank-switched 8080 or Z80. Or on any LS-11 or PDP-11 with memory management." Whitesmiths advertisement in Computerworld, Mar 1983 [2]. Yourdon Inc, announced Omnix in 1980, a Unix-like system for Z80[3]. By 1981 it "had to be withdrawn when Yourdon were let down by its developers" [4]. [1] https://indico.cern.ch/event/318305/attachments/612388/842557/PJPlauger-ITSeminar-Fifty_years.pdf [2] https://books.google.com/books?id=RAe4jAHXAgwC&pg=PA50 [3] https://www.tuhs.org/Archive/Documentation/AUUGN/AUUGN-V02.3.pdf [4] https://dl.acm.org/doi/pdf/10.1145/1164679.1164681 The last article is "UNIX on a Micro" by Cornelia Boldyreff. It briefly mentions other 8-bit Unix-likes: Cromemco's Cromix, Thinker Toys/Morrow's Micronix, Technical Systems Consultants' UniFLEX. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* [TUHS] Re: Any Bell 8-bit UNIX Efforts? 2023-02-27 10:57 ` Jonathan Gray @ 2023-02-28 18:59 ` segaloco via TUHS 2023-02-28 19:03 ` Larry McVoy 2023-02-28 19:42 ` Clem Cole 0 siblings, 2 replies; 21+ messages in thread From: segaloco via TUHS @ 2023-02-28 18:59 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Jonathan Gray; +Cc: tuhs Sounds like Idris and uNIX are the closest we get with ex-Bell personnel being involved with both projects. I haven't found anything in the surviving Bell streams that suggests any 8-bit attempts internally, and various portability documents suggest 16-bit and 32-bit targets abound but nothing like a 6502 or Z80 running UNIX inside Bell, again not that it would really be that worthwhile of an experiment at the time given their focus on minis. Anywho, if anything ever does show up in my study I'll happily share the details. - Matt G. ------- Original Message ------- On Monday, February 27th, 2023 at 2:57 AM, Jonathan Gray <jsg@jsg.id.au> wrote: > On Sat, Feb 25, 2023 at 07:48:45PM +0000, segaloco via TUHS wrote: > > > So in working on an unrelated 6502 project, I got to wondering about > > UNIX on it and other 8-bits. Did some Googling, and while I was > > able to turn up some attempts at UNIX-likes on 6502 as well as Z80, > > the only one I found that might have some Bell connection is "uNIX" > > as documented here: https://bitsavers.org/pdf/uNIX/uNIX_Jan82.pdf > > > > A forum post I read suggested those involved were some former Bell > > folks from NJ. In any case, this begs the question for me: Were > > there ever any serious attempts at an 8-bit UNIX in the labs or > > Bell System at large? Certainly it would've provided quite the > > challenge without much return compared with 16 and 32-bit efforts, > > but does anyone know if, say, an LSX/Mini-UNIX-ish attempt was ever > > made at the 6502, Z80, or other 8-bits? Thanks all! > > > > - Matt G. > > > If by Bell connection you mean people. Plauger left in 1975, > joined Yourdon Inc in 1975, started Whitesmiths Ltd in 1978[1]. > Whitesmiths created Idris, a clone of Unix. > > "Idris can run comfortably where UNIX can't event fit: On an > MC68000 with no memory management hardware, for example. > On a bank-switched 8080 or Z80. Or on any LS-11 or PDP-11 > with memory management." > Whitesmiths advertisement in Computerworld, Mar 1983 [2]. > > Yourdon Inc, announced Omnix in 1980, a Unix-like system for Z80[3]. > By 1981 it "had to be withdrawn when Yourdon were let down by its > developers" [4]. > > [1] https://indico.cern.ch/event/318305/attachments/612388/842557/PJPlauger-ITSeminar-Fifty_years.pdf > [2] https://books.google.com/books?id=RAe4jAHXAgwC&pg=PA50 > [3] https://www.tuhs.org/Archive/Documentation/AUUGN/AUUGN-V02.3.pdf > [4] https://dl.acm.org/doi/pdf/10.1145/1164679.1164681 > > The last article is "UNIX on a Micro" by Cornelia Boldyreff. > It briefly mentions other 8-bit Unix-likes: Cromemco's Cromix, > Thinker Toys/Morrow's Micronix, Technical Systems Consultants' UniFLEX. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* [TUHS] Re: Any Bell 8-bit UNIX Efforts? 2023-02-28 18:59 ` segaloco via TUHS @ 2023-02-28 19:03 ` Larry McVoy 2023-02-28 19:42 ` Clem Cole 1 sibling, 0 replies; 21+ messages in thread From: Larry McVoy @ 2023-02-28 19:03 UTC (permalink / raw) To: segaloco; +Cc: Jonathan Gray, tuhs Well if you think about how hard the orginal folks worked to fit useful programs in 64K, it's hard to imagine there was much appetite for trying to fit in smaller processors. All the focus was on machines with more memory, banked PDP-11s and then the VAX. The 8 bit market was all home owner CP/M machines. On Tue, Feb 28, 2023 at 06:59:14PM +0000, segaloco via TUHS wrote: > Sounds like Idris and uNIX are the closest we get with ex-Bell personnel being involved with both projects. > > I haven't found anything in the surviving Bell streams that suggests any 8-bit attempts internally, and various portability documents suggest 16-bit and 32-bit targets abound but nothing like a 6502 or Z80 running UNIX inside Bell, again not that it would really be that worthwhile of an experiment at the time given their focus on minis. Anywho, if anything ever does show up in my study I'll happily share the details. > > - Matt G. > > ------- Original Message ------- > On Monday, February 27th, 2023 at 2:57 AM, Jonathan Gray <jsg@jsg.id.au> wrote: > > > > On Sat, Feb 25, 2023 at 07:48:45PM +0000, segaloco via TUHS wrote: > > > > > So in working on an unrelated 6502 project, I got to wondering about > > > UNIX on it and other 8-bits. Did some Googling, and while I was > > > able to turn up some attempts at UNIX-likes on 6502 as well as Z80, > > > the only one I found that might have some Bell connection is "uNIX" > > > as documented here: https://bitsavers.org/pdf/uNIX/uNIX_Jan82.pdf > > > > > > A forum post I read suggested those involved were some former Bell > > > folks from NJ. In any case, this begs the question for me: Were > > > there ever any serious attempts at an 8-bit UNIX in the labs or > > > Bell System at large? Certainly it would've provided quite the > > > challenge without much return compared with 16 and 32-bit efforts, > > > but does anyone know if, say, an LSX/Mini-UNIX-ish attempt was ever > > > made at the 6502, Z80, or other 8-bits? Thanks all! > > > > > > - Matt G. > > > > > > If by Bell connection you mean people. Plauger left in 1975, > > joined Yourdon Inc in 1975, started Whitesmiths Ltd in 1978[1]. > > Whitesmiths created Idris, a clone of Unix. > > > > "Idris can run comfortably where UNIX can't event fit: On an > > MC68000 with no memory management hardware, for example. > > On a bank-switched 8080 or Z80. Or on any LS-11 or PDP-11 > > with memory management." > > Whitesmiths advertisement in Computerworld, Mar 1983 [2]. > > > > Yourdon Inc, announced Omnix in 1980, a Unix-like system for Z80[3]. > > By 1981 it "had to be withdrawn when Yourdon were let down by its > > developers" [4]. > > > > [1] https://indico.cern.ch/event/318305/attachments/612388/842557/PJPlauger-ITSeminar-Fifty_years.pdf > > [2] https://books.google.com/books?id=RAe4jAHXAgwC&pg=PA50 > > [3] https://www.tuhs.org/Archive/Documentation/AUUGN/AUUGN-V02.3.pdf > > [4] https://dl.acm.org/doi/pdf/10.1145/1164679.1164681 > > > > The last article is "UNIX on a Micro" by Cornelia Boldyreff. > > It briefly mentions other 8-bit Unix-likes: Cromemco's Cromix, > > Thinker Toys/Morrow's Micronix, Technical Systems Consultants' UniFLEX. -- --- Larry McVoy Retired to fishing http://www.mcvoy.com/lm/boat ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* [TUHS] Re: Any Bell 8-bit UNIX Efforts? 2023-02-28 18:59 ` segaloco via TUHS 2023-02-28 19:03 ` Larry McVoy @ 2023-02-28 19:42 ` Clem Cole 2023-02-28 19:57 ` Bakul Shah ` (2 more replies) 1 sibling, 3 replies; 21+ messages in thread From: Clem Cole @ 2023-02-28 19:42 UTC (permalink / raw) To: segaloco; +Cc: Jonathan Gray, tuhs [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 4827 bytes --] Just so you know, the folks in Western Electric's Teletype team retargeted the Ritchie compiler to become a Z80 cross-compiler/assembler dev tools suite. That implementation was floating around the Bell System in the 76/77/78 time frame. I know Karn had brought it with him and started using it for his original KA9Q IP/TCP implementation, initially for his CP/M box and ham radio system; (as he ran it as a cross compiler on my 11/34 at CMU's Mellon Institute -- I trade cycles for access to the compiler). I don't know if anyone ever tried to use the Teletype Z80 C compiler to build a UNIX or UNIX-like port for the z80 with it. I have since forgotten how complete it was. A bit later, Loer Zohlman wrote BDS C, <https://streaklinks.com/BaWWWKCdXX0VeHglTwPJ67Kb/https%3A%2F%2Fwww.bdsoft.com%2Fresources%2Fbdsc.html>which was pretty darned good/fairly complete C implementation for the time; and a few years back, he put it in the Public Domain [ you can download it from his website]. Missing/lost is/was the UNIX-like system they were working on to go along with the compiler - which I am trying to remember if it was quite complete/much less made it out for sale like his compiler was at the time. However, at an early Boston USENIX, Leor had it running "good enough" that he brought it and showed it in his room on a dual floppy Z80 IMSAI box <https://streaklinks.com/BaWWWN1JCX6k_N2uxQTLwc9m/http%3A%2F%2Fretrotechnology.com%2Fherbs_stuff%2Fd_imsai.html> with some 4K bank switching HW (I don't remember how much memory - probably 128Kish). I was there when he demo'ed it to Dennis and a few other hackers. Dennis's response at the time was it reminded him of the early UNIX efforts. I just thought it was pretty cool. A year or so later, Onyx folks brought their Z8000 based V7 system to USENIX, causing quite a stir ᐧ ᐧ ᐧ ᐧ On Tue, Feb 28, 2023 at 1:59 PM segaloco via TUHS <tuhs@tuhs.org> wrote: > Sounds like Idris and uNIX are the closest we get with ex-Bell personnel > being involved with both projects. > > I haven't found anything in the surviving Bell streams that suggests any > 8-bit attempts internally, and various portability documents suggest 16-bit > and 32-bit targets abound but nothing like a 6502 or Z80 running UNIX > inside Bell, again not that it would really be that worthwhile of an > experiment at the time given their focus on minis. Anywho, if anything > ever does show up in my study I'll happily share the details. > > - Matt G. > > ------- Original Message ------- > On Monday, February 27th, 2023 at 2:57 AM, Jonathan Gray <jsg@jsg.id.au> > wrote: > > > > On Sat, Feb 25, 2023 at 07:48:45PM +0000, segaloco via TUHS wrote: > > > > > So in working on an unrelated 6502 project, I got to wondering about > > > UNIX on it and other 8-bits. Did some Googling, and while I was > > > able to turn up some attempts at UNIX-likes on 6502 as well as Z80, > > > the only one I found that might have some Bell connection is "uNIX" > > > as documented here: https://bitsavers.org/pdf/uNIX/uNIX_Jan82.pdf > > > > > > A forum post I read suggested those involved were some former Bell > > > folks from NJ. In any case, this begs the question for me: Were > > > there ever any serious attempts at an 8-bit UNIX in the labs or > > > Bell System at large? Certainly it would've provided quite the > > > challenge without much return compared with 16 and 32-bit efforts, > > > but does anyone know if, say, an LSX/Mini-UNIX-ish attempt was ever > > > made at the 6502, Z80, or other 8-bits? Thanks all! > > > > > > - Matt G. > > > > > > If by Bell connection you mean people. Plauger left in 1975, > > joined Yourdon Inc in 1975, started Whitesmiths Ltd in 1978[1]. > > Whitesmiths created Idris, a clone of Unix. > > > > "Idris can run comfortably where UNIX can't event fit: On an > > MC68000 with no memory management hardware, for example. > > On a bank-switched 8080 or Z80. Or on any LS-11 or PDP-11 > > with memory management." > > Whitesmiths advertisement in Computerworld, Mar 1983 [2]. > > > > Yourdon Inc, announced Omnix in 1980, a Unix-like system for Z80[3]. > > By 1981 it "had to be withdrawn when Yourdon were let down by its > > developers" [4]. > > > > [1] > https://indico.cern.ch/event/318305/attachments/612388/842557/PJPlauger-ITSeminar-Fifty_years.pdf > > [2] https://books.google.com/books?id=RAe4jAHXAgwC&pg=PA50 > > [3] https://www.tuhs.org/Archive/Documentation/AUUGN/AUUGN-V02.3.pdf > > [4] https://dl.acm.org/doi/pdf/10.1145/1164679.1164681 > > > > The last article is "UNIX on a Micro" by Cornelia Boldyreff. > > It briefly mentions other 8-bit Unix-likes: Cromemco's Cromix, > > Thinker Toys/Morrow's Micronix, Technical Systems Consultants' UniFLEX. > [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 7708 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* [TUHS] Re: Any Bell 8-bit UNIX Efforts? 2023-02-28 19:42 ` Clem Cole @ 2023-02-28 19:57 ` Bakul Shah 2023-02-28 23:31 ` Dave Horsfall 2023-03-01 0:31 ` Jonathan Gray 2 siblings, 0 replies; 21+ messages in thread From: Bakul Shah @ 2023-02-28 19:57 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Clem Cole; +Cc: segaloco, Jonathan Gray, tuhs [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 5315 bytes --] There was Cromix from Cromemco, released in 1979. It was supposed to be a lot like Unix and had its own C compiler. https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/stamp/stamp.jsp?tp=&arnumber=1667547 I did use Leor Zolman's BDS C on my z80 imsai box in 1979-80. Written in Assembly language! Sources here: http://www.cpm.z80.de/develop.htm > On Feb 28, 2023, at 11:42 AM, Clem Cole <clemc@ccc.com> wrote: > > Just so you know, the folks in Western Electric's Teletype team retargeted the Ritchie compiler to become a Z80 cross-compiler/assembler dev tools suite. That implementation was floating around the Bell System in the 76/77/78 time frame. I know Karn had brought it with him and started using it for his original KA9Q IP/TCP implementation, initially for his CP/M box and ham radio system; (as he ran it as a cross compiler on my 11/34 at CMU's Mellon Institute -- I trade cycles for access to the compiler). I don't know if anyone ever tried to use the Teletype Z80 C compiler to build a UNIX or UNIX-like port for the z80 with it. I have since forgotten how complete it was. > > A bit later, Loer Zohlman wrote BDS C, <https://streaklinks.com/BaWWWKCdXX0VeHglTwPJ67Kb/https%3A%2F%2Fwww.bdsoft.com%2Fresources%2Fbdsc.html>which was pretty darned good/fairly complete C implementation for the time; and a few years back, he put it in the Public Domain [ you can download it from his website]. Missing/lost is/was the UNIX-like system they were working on to go along with the compiler - which I am trying to remember if it was quite complete/much less made it out for sale like his compiler was at the time. However, at an early Boston USENIX, Leor had it running "good enough" that he brought it and showed it in his room on a dual floppy Z80 IMSAI box <https://streaklinks.com/BaWWWN1JCX6k_N2uxQTLwc9m/http%3A%2F%2Fretrotechnology.com%2Fherbs_stuff%2Fd_imsai.html> with some 4K bank switching HW (I don't remember how much memory - probably 128Kish). I was there when he demo'ed it to Dennis and a few other hackers. Dennis's response at the time was it reminded him of the early UNIX efforts. I just thought it was pretty cool. > > A year or so later, Onyx folks brought their Z8000 based V7 system to USENIX, causing quite a stir > ᐧ > ᐧ > ᐧ > ᐧ > > On Tue, Feb 28, 2023 at 1:59 PM segaloco via TUHS <tuhs@tuhs.org <mailto:tuhs@tuhs.org>> wrote: >> Sounds like Idris and uNIX are the closest we get with ex-Bell personnel being involved with both projects. >> >> I haven't found anything in the surviving Bell streams that suggests any 8-bit attempts internally, and various portability documents suggest 16-bit and 32-bit targets abound but nothing like a 6502 or Z80 running UNIX inside Bell, again not that it would really be that worthwhile of an experiment at the time given their focus on minis. Anywho, if anything ever does show up in my study I'll happily share the details. >> >> - Matt G. >> >> ------- Original Message ------- >> On Monday, February 27th, 2023 at 2:57 AM, Jonathan Gray <jsg@jsg.id.au <mailto:jsg@jsg.id.au>> wrote: >> >> >> > On Sat, Feb 25, 2023 at 07:48:45PM +0000, segaloco via TUHS wrote: >> > >> > > So in working on an unrelated 6502 project, I got to wondering about >> > > UNIX on it and other 8-bits. Did some Googling, and while I was >> > > able to turn up some attempts at UNIX-likes on 6502 as well as Z80, >> > > the only one I found that might have some Bell connection is "uNIX" >> > > as documented here: https://bitsavers.org/pdf/uNIX/uNIX_Jan82.pdf >> > > >> > > A forum post I read suggested those involved were some former Bell >> > > folks from NJ. In any case, this begs the question for me: Were >> > > there ever any serious attempts at an 8-bit UNIX in the labs or >> > > Bell System at large? Certainly it would've provided quite the >> > > challenge without much return compared with 16 and 32-bit efforts, >> > > but does anyone know if, say, an LSX/Mini-UNIX-ish attempt was ever >> > > made at the 6502, Z80, or other 8-bits? Thanks all! >> > > >> > > - Matt G. >> > >> > >> > If by Bell connection you mean people. Plauger left in 1975, >> > joined Yourdon Inc in 1975, started Whitesmiths Ltd in 1978[1]. >> > Whitesmiths created Idris, a clone of Unix. >> > >> > "Idris can run comfortably where UNIX can't event fit: On an >> > MC68000 with no memory management hardware, for example. >> > On a bank-switched 8080 or Z80. Or on any LS-11 or PDP-11 >> > with memory management." >> > Whitesmiths advertisement in Computerworld, Mar 1983 [2]. >> > >> > Yourdon Inc, announced Omnix in 1980, a Unix-like system for Z80[3]. >> > By 1981 it "had to be withdrawn when Yourdon were let down by its >> > developers" [4]. >> > >> > [1] https://indico.cern.ch/event/318305/attachments/612388/842557/PJPlauger-ITSeminar-Fifty_years.pdf >> > [2] https://books.google.com/books?id=RAe4jAHXAgwC&pg=PA50 >> > [3] https://www.tuhs.org/Archive/Documentation/AUUGN/AUUGN-V02.3.pdf >> > [4] https://dl.acm.org/doi/pdf/10.1145/1164679.1164681 >> > >> > The last article is "UNIX on a Micro" by Cornelia Boldyreff. >> > It briefly mentions other 8-bit Unix-likes: Cromemco's Cromix, >> > Thinker Toys/Morrow's Micronix, Technical Systems Consultants' UniFLEX. [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 8589 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* [TUHS] Re: Any Bell 8-bit UNIX Efforts? 2023-02-28 19:42 ` Clem Cole 2023-02-28 19:57 ` Bakul Shah @ 2023-02-28 23:31 ` Dave Horsfall 2023-03-01 0:39 ` Larry McVoy 2023-03-01 1:21 ` Rich Salz 2023-03-01 0:31 ` Jonathan Gray 2 siblings, 2 replies; 21+ messages in thread From: Dave Horsfall @ 2023-02-28 23:31 UTC (permalink / raw) To: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 583 bytes --] On Tue, 28 Feb 2023, Clem Cole wrote: [...] > A bit later, Loer Zohlman wrote BDS C, which was pretty darned > good/fairly complete C implementation for the time; [...] I'm glad that you qualified it with "for the time"; I've used it, and calling it a "C compiler" was a bit of a stretch[*]. Later on I bought the Hi-Tech C compiler, and it was full ANSI, with function prototypes etc. [*] I think it was Henry Spencer who said (in relation to some other product): "Somehow, to be called a C compiler it ought to at least be able to compile C". -- Dave ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* [TUHS] Re: Any Bell 8-bit UNIX Efforts? 2023-02-28 23:31 ` Dave Horsfall @ 2023-03-01 0:39 ` Larry McVoy 2023-03-01 1:21 ` Rich Salz 1 sibling, 0 replies; 21+ messages in thread From: Larry McVoy @ 2023-03-01 0:39 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Dave Horsfall; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society On Wed, Mar 01, 2023 at 10:31:59AM +1100, Dave Horsfall wrote: > On Tue, 28 Feb 2023, Clem Cole wrote: > > [...] > > > A bit later, Loer Zohlman wrote??BDS C,??which was pretty darned > > good/fairly complete C implementation for the time; [...] > > I'm glad that you qualified it with "for the time"; I've used it, and > calling it a "C compiler" was a bit of a stretch[*]. Later on I bought > the Hi-Tech C compiler, and it was full ANSI, with function prototypes > etc. BDS C wasn't ANSI by any stretch but it was small, fast, and available when everything else was slow (except Turbo Pascal, crazy fast, but, um, Pascal. 'Nuf said). While I had to relearn the stdio lib for real C, I did not find it hard at all to switch back and forth and I wrote a ton of useful stuff in BDS C. Super grateful to have had it. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* [TUHS] Re: Any Bell 8-bit UNIX Efforts? 2023-02-28 23:31 ` Dave Horsfall 2023-03-01 0:39 ` Larry McVoy @ 2023-03-01 1:21 ` Rich Salz 2023-03-01 1:27 ` Warner Losh 2023-03-01 2:07 ` Ronald Natalie 1 sibling, 2 replies; 21+ messages in thread From: Rich Salz @ 2023-03-01 1:21 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Dave Horsfall; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 452 bytes --] > > > I'm glad that you qualified it with "for the time"; I've used it, and > calling it a "C compiler" was a bit of a stretch[*]. Later on I bought > the Hi-Tech C compiler, and it was full ANSI, with function prototypes > etc. > Hmm. K&R publication date was February 1978. BDS C was released in August 1979. So it was certainly C as known at that time. X3J11 was convened in 1983 and published in 1985. Doesn't seem like a good comparison. > > [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 887 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* [TUHS] Re: Any Bell 8-bit UNIX Efforts? 2023-03-01 1:21 ` Rich Salz @ 2023-03-01 1:27 ` Warner Losh 2023-03-01 2:07 ` Ronald Natalie 1 sibling, 0 replies; 21+ messages in thread From: Warner Losh @ 2023-03-01 1:27 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Rich Salz; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 738 bytes --] On Tue, Feb 28, 2023, 6:21 PM Rich Salz <rich.salz@gmail.com> wrote: > >> I'm glad that you qualified it with "for the time"; I've used it, and >> calling it a "C compiler" was a bit of a stretch[*]. Later on I bought >> the Hi-Tech C compiler, and it was full ANSI, with function prototypes >> etc. >> > > Hmm. K&R publication date was February 1978. BDS C was released in August > 1979. So it was certainly C as known at that time. X3J11 was convened in > 1983 and published in 1985. Doesn't seem like a good comparison. > I have a memory of a star trek themed illustration/poster of Bones holding the ANSI C standard that said "It's C Jim but not as we know it..." my Google fu is insufficient to find it though... Warner > >> [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 1759 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* [TUHS] Re: Any Bell 8-bit UNIX Efforts? 2023-03-01 1:21 ` Rich Salz 2023-03-01 1:27 ` Warner Losh @ 2023-03-01 2:07 ` Ronald Natalie 2023-03-01 2:35 ` Dan Cross 2023-03-01 2:50 ` Jonathan Gray 1 sibling, 2 replies; 21+ messages in thread From: Ronald Natalie @ 2023-03-01 2:07 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Rich Salz, Dave Horsfall; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1460 bytes --] The first chapter of K&R was out as a technical paper at least a year prior to the book coming out. By the time the book had come out, there had already been some evolution in the language. The “Phototypesetter” and soon after “Version 7” versions of the compiler were heading toward what would be come ANSI by the time BDS came out. Amusingly, I ended up working for an unrelated company called BDS and ended up with the BDS.COM domain. Eventually, we changed the name of the company and after brief inquiry from them donated the BDS.COM domain to the compiler guys. At least it didn’t come with a prayer book like the Metalware compiler (which really needed all the divine intervention that it could get). ------ Original Message ------ From "Rich Salz" <rich.salz@gmail.com> To "Dave Horsfall" <dave@horsfall.org> Cc "The Eunuchs Hysterical Society" <tuhs@tuhs.org> Date 2/28/2023 8:21:42 PM Subject [TUHS] Re: Any Bell 8-bit UNIX Efforts? >> >>I'm glad that you qualified it with "for the time"; I've used it, and >>calling it a "C compiler" was a bit of a stretch[*]. Later on I >>bought >>the Hi-Tech C compiler, and it was full ANSI, with function prototypes >>etc. > >Hmm. K&R publication date was February 1978. BDS C was released in >August 1979. So it was certainly C as known at that time. X3J11 was >convened in 1983 and published in 1985. Doesn't seem like a good >comparison. >> [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 3125 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* [TUHS] Re: Any Bell 8-bit UNIX Efforts? 2023-03-01 2:07 ` Ronald Natalie @ 2023-03-01 2:35 ` Dan Cross 2023-03-01 2:38 ` Ronald Natalie ` (2 more replies) 2023-03-01 2:50 ` Jonathan Gray 1 sibling, 3 replies; 21+ messages in thread From: Dan Cross @ 2023-03-01 2:35 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Ronald Natalie; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society On Tue, Feb 28, 2023 at 9:07 PM Ronald Natalie <ron@ronnatalie.com> wrote: > [snip] > At least it didn’t come with a prayer book like the Metalware compiler (which really needed all the divine intervention that it could get). Was that the one that shipped with the IBM RT? Is it just my imagination or did some of the error messages contain biblical references? - Dan C. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* [TUHS] Re: Any Bell 8-bit UNIX Efforts? 2023-03-01 2:35 ` Dan Cross @ 2023-03-01 2:38 ` Ronald Natalie 2023-03-01 3:02 ` [TUHS] IBM RT/PC compilers [was " Charles H. Sauer 2023-03-01 14:12 ` [TUHS] " Chet Ramey 2 siblings, 0 replies; 21+ messages in thread From: Ronald Natalie @ 2023-03-01 2:38 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Dan Cross; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society I don’t know. We used it with the Intel i860 processor when we were doing work for IBM so it was possible that is how we were hooked up with them. ------ Original Message ------ From "Dan Cross" <crossd@gmail.com> To "Ronald Natalie" <ron@ronnatalie.com> Cc "Rich Salz" <rich.salz@gmail.com>; "Dave Horsfall" <dave@horsfall.org>; "The Eunuchs Hysterical Society" <tuhs@tuhs.org> Date 2/28/2023 9:35:44 PM Subject Re: [TUHS] Re: Any Bell 8-bit UNIX Efforts? >On Tue, Feb 28, 2023 at 9:07 PM Ronald Natalie <ron@ronnatalie.com> wrote: >>[snip] >>At least it didn’t come with a prayer book like the Metalware compiler (which really needed all the divine intervention that it could get). > >Was that the one that shipped with the IBM RT? Is it just my >imagination or did some of the error messages contain biblical >references? > > - Dan C. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* [TUHS] IBM RT/PC compilers [was Re: Any Bell 8-bit UNIX Efforts? 2023-03-01 2:35 ` Dan Cross 2023-03-01 2:38 ` Ronald Natalie @ 2023-03-01 3:02 ` Charles H. Sauer 2023-03-01 4:02 ` [TUHS] " George Michaelson 2023-03-01 14:12 ` [TUHS] " Chet Ramey 2 siblings, 1 reply; 21+ messages in thread From: Charles H. Sauer @ 2023-03-01 3:02 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Dan Cross; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1496 bytes --] > On Feb 28, 2023, at 8:35 PM, Dan Cross <crossd@gmail.com> wrote: > > On Tue, Feb 28, 2023 at 9:07 PM Ronald Natalie <ron@ronnatalie.com> wrote: >> [snip] >> At least it didn’t come with a prayer book like the Metalware compiler (which really needed all the divine intervention that it could get). > > Was that the one that shipped with the IBM RT? Is it just my > imagination or did some of the error messages contain biblical > references? > > - Dan C. It may be that Metaware was available for AIX on the RT, but, if so, not bundled with AIX. AIX 1 releases bundled a fairly vanilla pcc as provided by ISC. AIX 2 releases bundled pcc with the HCR optimization phase added. I’m not sure about AIX 3 and beyond, since I left before they were released. The “strategic” plan was a reimplementation of the PL.8 compiler as a C compiler with the work done by an IBM group in Toronto. I suspect that was extra cost option and that pcc with HCR was still bundled in the base. I have the impression that AOS (BSD for RT) eventually also included the HCR phase. See https://notes.technologists.com/notes/2017/03/08/lets-start-at-the-very-beginning-801-romp-rtpc-aix-versions/ for more context. CHS -- voice: +1.512.784.7526 e-mail: sauer@technologists.com <mailto:sauer@technologists.com> fax: +1.512.346.5240 web: https://technologists.com/sauer/ <http://technologists.com/sauer/> Facebook/Google/LinkedIn/Twitter: CharlesHSauer [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 3263 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* [TUHS] Re: IBM RT/PC compilers [was Re: Any Bell 8-bit UNIX Efforts? 2023-03-01 3:02 ` [TUHS] IBM RT/PC compilers [was " Charles H. Sauer @ 2023-03-01 4:02 ` George Michaelson 0 siblings, 0 replies; 21+ messages in thread From: George Michaelson @ 2023-03-01 4:02 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Charles H. Sauer; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society I used BSD/RT and I don't recall anything that good and my C is pretty terrible: if there were biblical error codes I would have expected to tickle them. On Wed, Mar 1, 2023 at 1:02 PM Charles H. Sauer <sauer@technologists.com> wrote: > > > > On Feb 28, 2023, at 8:35 PM, Dan Cross <crossd@gmail.com> wrote: > > On Tue, Feb 28, 2023 at 9:07 PM Ronald Natalie <ron@ronnatalie.com> wrote: > > [snip] > At least it didn’t come with a prayer book like the Metalware compiler (which really needed all the divine intervention that it could get). > > > Was that the one that shipped with the IBM RT? Is it just my > imagination or did some of the error messages contain biblical > references? > > - Dan C. > > > It may be that Metaware was available for AIX on the RT, but, if so, not bundled with AIX. AIX 1 releases bundled a fairly vanilla pcc as provided by ISC. AIX 2 releases bundled pcc with the HCR optimization phase added. I’m not sure about AIX 3 and beyond, since I left before they were released. The “strategic” plan was a reimplementation of the PL.8 compiler as a C compiler with the work done by an IBM group in Toronto. I suspect that was extra cost option and that pcc with HCR was still bundled in the base. I have the impression that AOS (BSD for RT) eventually also included the HCR phase. See https://notes.technologists.com/notes/2017/03/08/lets-start-at-the-very-beginning-801-romp-rtpc-aix-versions/ for more context. CHS > > -- > voice: +1.512.784.7526 e-mail: sauer@technologists.com > fax: +1.512.346.5240 web: https://technologists.com/sauer/ > Facebook/Google/LinkedIn/Twitter: CharlesHSauer > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* [TUHS] Re: Any Bell 8-bit UNIX Efforts? 2023-03-01 2:35 ` Dan Cross 2023-03-01 2:38 ` Ronald Natalie 2023-03-01 3:02 ` [TUHS] IBM RT/PC compilers [was " Charles H. Sauer @ 2023-03-01 14:12 ` Chet Ramey 2023-03-02 9:05 ` Jaap Akkerhuis via TUHS 2 siblings, 1 reply; 21+ messages in thread From: Chet Ramey @ 2023-03-01 14:12 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Dan Cross, Ronald Natalie; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society On 2/28/23 9:35 PM, Dan Cross wrote: > On Tue, Feb 28, 2023 at 9:07 PM Ronald Natalie <ron@ronnatalie.com> wrote: >> [snip] >> At least it didn’t come with a prayer book like the Metalware compiler (which really needed all the divine intervention that it could get). > > Was that the one that shipped with the IBM RT? Is it just my > imagination or did some of the error messages contain biblical > references? Yes! High C from Metaware. I wrestled with that compiling bash a lot; I did a ton of development on AOS. -- ``The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne.'' - Chaucer ``Ars longa, vita brevis'' - Hippocrates Chet Ramey, UTech, CWRU chet@case.edu http://tiswww.cwru.edu/~chet/ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* [TUHS] Re: Any Bell 8-bit UNIX Efforts? 2023-03-01 14:12 ` [TUHS] " Chet Ramey @ 2023-03-02 9:05 ` Jaap Akkerhuis via TUHS 2023-03-02 19:26 ` Clem Cole 0 siblings, 1 reply; 21+ messages in thread From: Jaap Akkerhuis via TUHS @ 2023-03-02 9:05 UTC (permalink / raw) To: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society [-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 319 bytes --] > On 1 Mar 2023, at 15:12, Chet Ramey <chet.ramey@case.edu> wrote: > > Yes! High C from Metaware. I wrestled with that compiling bash a lot; I > did a ton of development on AOS. Once I was told that the compiler originally started live as a Pascal compiler and later C compilation was added to the product. jaap [-- Attachment #1.2: Type: text/html, Size: 2136 bytes --] [-- Attachment #2: Message signed with OpenPGP --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 267 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* [TUHS] Re: Any Bell 8-bit UNIX Efforts? 2023-03-02 9:05 ` Jaap Akkerhuis via TUHS @ 2023-03-02 19:26 ` Clem Cole 0 siblings, 0 replies; 21+ messages in thread From: Clem Cole @ 2023-03-02 19:26 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Jaap Akkerhuis; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 475 bytes --] below... On Thu, Mar 2, 2023 at 4:06 AM Jaap Akkerhuis via TUHS <tuhs@tuhs.org> wrote: > > > On 1 Mar 2023, at 15:12, Chet Ramey <chet.ramey@case.edu> wrote: > > Yes! High C from Metaware. I wrestled with that compiling bash a lot; I > did a ton of development on AOS. > > > Once I was told that the compiler originally started live as a > Pascal compiler and later C compilation was added to the product. > > > That rings a bell for me also FWIW. ᐧ [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 2428 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* [TUHS] Re: Any Bell 8-bit UNIX Efforts? 2023-03-01 2:07 ` Ronald Natalie 2023-03-01 2:35 ` Dan Cross @ 2023-03-01 2:50 ` Jonathan Gray 1 sibling, 0 replies; 21+ messages in thread From: Jonathan Gray @ 2023-03-01 2:50 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Ronald Natalie; +Cc: tuhs On Wed, Mar 01, 2023 at 02:07:06AM +0000, Ronald Natalie wrote: > The first chapter of K&R was out as a technical paper at least a year prior > to the book coming out. > By the time the book had come out, there had already been some evolution in > the language. The “Phototypesetter” and soon after “Version 7” versions > of the compiler were heading toward what would be come ANSI by the time BDS > came out. The background to BDS C is described in an interview with Leor Zolman http://www.znode51.de/articles/int4.htm "I wrote the first cut of BDS C between January and April, 1979, specifically in order to compile a C version of the Othello game written by Robert Halstead at the Real-Time Systems Lab at MIT" > > Amusingly, I ended up working for an unrelated company called BDS and ended > up with the BDS.COM domain. Eventually, we changed the name of the company > and after brief inquiry from them donated the BDS.COM domain to the compiler > guys. > > At least it didn’t come with a prayer book like the Metalware compiler > (which really needed all the divine intervention that it could get). MetaWare High C, used by AIS/AOS on the PC RT > > ------ Original Message ------ > > From "Rich Salz" <rich.salz@gmail.com> > To "Dave Horsfall" <dave@horsfall.org> > Cc "The Eunuchs Hysterical Society" <tuhs@tuhs.org> > Date 2/28/2023 8:21:42 PM > Subject [TUHS] Re: Any Bell 8-bit UNIX Efforts? > > > > > > > I'm glad that you qualified it with "for the time"; I've used it, and > > > calling it a "C compiler" was a bit of a stretch[*]. Later on I > > > bought > > > the Hi-Tech C compiler, and it was full ANSI, with function prototypes > > > etc. > > > > Hmm. K&R publication date was February 1978. BDS C was released in > > August 1979. So it was certainly C as known at that time. X3J11 was > > convened in 1983 and published in 1985. Doesn't seem like a good > > comparison. > > > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* [TUHS] Re: Any Bell 8-bit UNIX Efforts? 2023-02-28 19:42 ` Clem Cole 2023-02-28 19:57 ` Bakul Shah 2023-02-28 23:31 ` Dave Horsfall @ 2023-03-01 0:31 ` Jonathan Gray 2 siblings, 0 replies; 21+ messages in thread From: Jonathan Gray @ 2023-03-01 0:31 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Clem Cole; +Cc: segaloco, tuhs On Tue, Feb 28, 2023 at 02:42:00PM -0500, Clem Cole wrote: > Just so you know, the folks in Western Electric's Teletype team retargeted > the Ritchie compiler to become a Z80 cross-compiler/assembler dev tools > suite. That implementation was floating around the Bell System in the > 76/77/78 time frame. I know Karn had brought it with him and started using > it for his original KA9Q IP/TCP implementation, initially for his CP/M box > and ham radio system; (as he ran it as a cross compiler on my 11/34 at > CMU's Mellon Institute -- I trade cycles for access to the compiler). I > don't know if anyone ever tried to use the Teletype Z80 C compiler to build > a UNIX or UNIX-like port for the z80 with it. I have since forgotten how > complete it was. > > A bit later, Loer Zohlman wrote BDS C, > <https://streaklinks.com/BaWWWKCdXX0VeHglTwPJ67Kb/https%3A%2F%2Fwww.bdsoft.com%2Fresources%2Fbdsc.html>which > was pretty darned good/fairly complete C implementation for the time; and a > few years back, he put it in the Public Domain [ you can download it from > his website]. Missing/lost is/was the UNIX-like system they were working > on to go along with the compiler - which I am trying to remember if it was > quite complete/much less made it out for sale like his compiler was at the > time. However, at an early Boston USENIX, Leor had it running "good > enough" that he brought it and showed it in his room on a dual floppy Z80 > IMSAI box > <https://streaklinks.com/BaWWWN1JCX6k_N2uxQTLwc9m/http%3A%2F%2Fretrotechnology.com%2Fherbs_stuff%2Fd_imsai.html> > with > some 4K bank switching HW (I don't remember how much memory - probably > 128Kish). I was there when he demo'ed it to Dennis and a few other > hackers. Dennis's response at the time was it reminded him of the early > UNIX efforts. I just thought it was pretty cool. 'BDS C version 1 has just about saturated its framework; version 2 is now being developed in close conjunction with the MARC Disk Operating System (the work of Edwin P. Ziemba) to provide a unified software development system for release sometime in 1981. MARC is a "Unix-like" operating system that happens to fit quite comfortably in non-gargantuan 8080/Z8O-based machines.' http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/bd_software/BDS_C_1.46_Users_Guide_Mar82.pdf 'I had the pleasure of meeting Dennis once at the Boston Usenix conference around 1980, where Ed Ziemba and I had set up a demo of Ed’s MARC operating system (single-user single-process Unix clone that ran parasitically on CP/M-80 machines). I think that one of the high points of my life was giving a demo of a software project to Dennis Ritchie and seeing it bring a big smile to his face.' Leor Zolman, in the comments on https://herbsutter.com/2011/10/16/your-first-c-program/ 'Ed Ziemba, the originator, guiding force and one of the primary authors of the UNIX-like operating system MARC, was killed June 7 in a freak accident while snorkeling' InfoWorld 17 Aug 1981 https://books.google.com/books?id=pD0EAAAAMBAJ&pg=PT14 There was a short writeup on MARC in the Dec 1982 issue of Byte https://archive.org/details/byte-magazine-1982-12/page/n219/mode/2up ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2023-03-02 19:27 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 21+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed) -- links below jump to the message on this page -- 2023-02-25 19:48 [TUHS] Any Bell 8-bit UNIX Efforts? segaloco via TUHS 2023-02-27 3:55 ` [TUHS] " Warner Losh 2023-02-27 10:57 ` Jonathan Gray 2023-02-28 18:59 ` segaloco via TUHS 2023-02-28 19:03 ` Larry McVoy 2023-02-28 19:42 ` Clem Cole 2023-02-28 19:57 ` Bakul Shah 2023-02-28 23:31 ` Dave Horsfall 2023-03-01 0:39 ` Larry McVoy 2023-03-01 1:21 ` Rich Salz 2023-03-01 1:27 ` Warner Losh 2023-03-01 2:07 ` Ronald Natalie 2023-03-01 2:35 ` Dan Cross 2023-03-01 2:38 ` Ronald Natalie 2023-03-01 3:02 ` [TUHS] IBM RT/PC compilers [was " Charles H. Sauer 2023-03-01 4:02 ` [TUHS] " George Michaelson 2023-03-01 14:12 ` [TUHS] " Chet Ramey 2023-03-02 9:05 ` Jaap Akkerhuis via TUHS 2023-03-02 19:26 ` Clem Cole 2023-03-01 2:50 ` Jonathan Gray 2023-03-01 0:31 ` Jonathan Gray
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