From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.6 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [45.79.103.53]) by inbox.vuxu.org (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id cb574112 for ; Tue, 18 Feb 2020 17:41:12 +0000 (UTC) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id E842D9D6D3; Wed, 19 Feb 2020 03:41:10 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A9F679D6C2; Wed, 19 Feb 2020 03:40:47 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=fail reason="signature verification failed" (1024-bit key; unprotected) header.d=ccc.com header.i=@ccc.com header.b="VAb1rbe7"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 4604F9D6C2; Wed, 19 Feb 2020 03:40:45 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-qk1-f172.google.com (mail-qk1-f172.google.com [209.85.222.172]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8E9399D6C0 for ; Wed, 19 Feb 2020 03:40:44 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-qk1-f172.google.com with SMTP id c188so20307034qkg.4 for ; Tue, 18 Feb 2020 09:40:44 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ccc.com; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=2cz36Ru2+DsU7GjAXO9q3B7BkPPN0yQUX3oYGgX/sH4=; b=VAb1rbe7pbrhCuQk6qZJkar/1/JJ/Kr659Ux3JrqjYjo7HqObw9xjzJJ8HIZd4L7h9 ThKPpeGGGmAw/Nyas/2WvDbWSO5wmeujcVDbL8TpWpWwUypzIQJuhWsZyfc9WprBam1u cGMUdDNOQEdPl16cGATkQt8y3Zf89EIUET9yA= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=2cz36Ru2+DsU7GjAXO9q3B7BkPPN0yQUX3oYGgX/sH4=; b=nMQjrbVY/FA/nFBd4SrWvjdTjupDBvrhTeVSxn5atGSKneMt3UyHJO05e7hpU3C+hm GjUoMOSUrtnPloanen1AAUSUftKBbWe/75/6hM40c6is6tgG4SWPmeGAWhHyhBSmWEaY g7yvDovp66zmiUlP1shKNuqUO6EZg5qn8zcP/ox/OhXM6puRYsqraCjh/503UHZR7G5n bp8f2yLOWv5eABER8lpu88aG777TCzHjkOW1LTzwdfjqHWmEwFsmBhwYhfK6TAA55YuV tVUl6HkRmbFs19j6piES81jikt++hg65tEfGSmxFme8HH6A2we3JxArJ1bSNeCGHgJ1E kW+g== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWhuKFI1d0dJ2tzS/f1EXsQYmm3vqlrho6GWmasTj2GV0zQhz9a RzFoNyfSealz4AcdG05SPpDXEeBsO+TzODk/2kTsOA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwYr4FIuQe5R4rzM6ShpdxDAZ/SNDNHWIGAej/YrvaM2mq0/mY87LWSgcKW3VT4ZjMZI5bHCBxry18RMKpdevA= X-Received: by 2002:ae9:eb49:: with SMTP id b70mr20495825qkg.307.1582047643495; Tue, 18 Feb 2020 09:40:43 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <202002171520.01HFKqKi026749@tahoe.cs.Dartmouth.EDU> <4d252035b323b7583c5760c952d1982c@firemail.de> <202002171839.01HId8FT1358073@darkstar.fourwinds.com> <202002180017.01I0HI0I1415945@darkstar.fourwinds.com> <202002181528.01IFSogM030831@freefriends.org> <846fcc9f-bd78-b990-cecd-21f8b6570231@case.edu> In-Reply-To: <846fcc9f-bd78-b990-cecd-21f8b6570231@case.edu> From: Clem Cole Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2020 11:28:59 -0500 Message-ID: To: chet.ramey@case.edu Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000cf041e059edd2bbd" Subject: Re: [TUHS] man Macro Package and pdfmark X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: tuhs@tuhs.org Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" --000000000000cf041e059edd2bbd Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" But that is how it was formed by the original commercial unix folks (which I was one). We talked about the open systems community. Look at some of the uniforum docs in the archives from the mid 1980s if you don't believe me. That is what was meant because we could not say Unix and at the term in the commercial community it was Unix vs proprietary systems aka VMS, MPE, Kronos et al. The context of the day that was exactly what we meant. That said, I'll grant you you words change meaning over time, but I was and do use the term in context of the original open systems community - which I was a founder. If you mean FOSS then say that, if you mean an open system with published interfaces and available sources, that by definition open source software. So please don't try tell me what we meant. Eric Raymond is probably the person where I started to see the warp of its meaning. That's why I always say FOSS when I mean free in the context of RMS. Also remember most of the current FOSS movement the code is very restrictioned in it's license. The difference is if you have to pay a fee for it and what you can do with the derivative works Fyi if you want to discuss free or not that discussion needs to move to COFF. This is certain a discussion from an old f*RTS perspective. On Tue, Feb 18, 2020 at 11:02 AM Chet Ramey wrote: > On 2/18/20 10:48 AM, Clem Cole wrote: > > The term OSS to mean free as in beer is just not correct. The sources > > were always free a as in available to be read but just like today they > are > > licensed. > > I'm not sure that "open source" as a synonym for "source code available > for purchase" is valid. > > > -- > ``The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne.'' - Chaucer > ``Ars longa, vita brevis'' - Hippocrates > Chet Ramey, UTech, CWRU chet@case.edu http://tiswww.cwru.edu/~chet/ > -- Sent from a handheld expect more typos than usual --000000000000cf041e059edd2bbd Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
But that is how it was formed by the original commer= cial unix folks (which I was one). =C2=A0 =C2=A0We talked about the open sy= stems community.=C2=A0 Look at some of the uniforum docs in the archives fr= om the mid 1980s if you don't believe me. That is what was meant becaus= e we could not say Unix and at the term in the commercial community it was = Unix vs proprietary systems aka VMS, MPE, Kronos et al.

The context of the day that was exact= ly what we meant.=C2=A0 That said, I'll grant you you words change mean= ing over time, but I was and do use the term in context of the original ope= n systems community - which I was a founder.=C2=A0
<= br>
If you mean FOSS then say that, if you mean an o= pen system with published interfaces and available sources, that by definit= ion open source software.

So please don't try tell me what we meant. Eric Raymond is probably t= he person where I =C2=A0started to see the warp of its meaning.=C2=A0
=

That's why I always say F= OSS when I mean free in the context of RMS. =C2=A0 =C2=A0Also remember most= of the current FOSS movement the code is very restrictioned in it's li= cense.=C2=A0 The difference is if you have to pay a fee for it and what you= can do with the derivative works=C2=A0

Fyi if you want to discuss free or not that discussion need= s to move to COFF.=C2=A0 This is certain a discussion from an old f*RTS per= spective.

On Tue, Feb 18, 2020 at 11:02 AM Chet Ramey <chet.ramey@case.edu> wrote:
On 2/18/20 10:48 AM, Clem Cole wrote:
> The term OSS to mean free as in beer is just not correct. =C2=A0 The s= ources
> were always free a as in available to be read but just like today they= are
> licensed.

I'm not sure that "open source" as a synonym for "source= code available
for purchase" is valid.


--
``The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne.'' - Chaucer
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0``Ars longa, = vita brevis'' - Hippocrates
Chet Ramey, UTech, CWRU=C2=A0 =C2=A0 chet@case.edu=C2=A0 =C2=A0 http://tiswww.cwru.edu/~che= t/
--
Sent from a handheld expect more typos t= han usual
--000000000000cf041e059edd2bbd--