[TUHS] Sockets and the true UNIX

[clemc@ccc.com (Clem Cole)]

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Norman - thanks - fair enough, but I stand by my original statement.

Greg, Dennis, Presetto, Sam and couple of others spent an evening
discussing it all at USENIX one night; early before Dennis has finished the
original implementation.    I'm very much sure, that while it was used for
networking, the TTY handler and low speed I/O was the driver.

On Mon, Sep 25, 2017 at 1:57 PM, Norman Wilson <norman at oclsc.org> wrote:

> Clem Cole:
>
>   It was never designed for it.  dmr designed Streams to replace the
>   tty handler.   I never understood  why the Summit guys insisted on
>   forcing networking into it.
>
> ======
>
> You've mistaken.

​Maybe -- its possible, but as I said, I certainly talked to Dennis and
Greg about this at length.​  It was a hot topic a number of times.   Greg
could get sort of animated ;-)




>   The point of the stream I/O setup with
> stackable line disciplines, rather than the old single
> line-discipline switch, was specifically to support networking
> as well as tty processing.
>

TTY, I 100% agree - this was exactly the problem that was trying to be
solved. - being able to handle networking was a side effect.

>
> ​...
>
>
> The problem Dennis wanted to solve was that tty handling
> and network protocol handling interfered with one another;
> you couldn't ask the kernel to do both, because there was
> only one line discipline at a time.

​This was an issue, but  don't think this was as important as...
the desire for stackable so we could mix and match line disc​iplines period.




> Hence the stackable
> ​ ​
> modules.

​Right ...  that was a driver ....​



> ​...
>  which
> expected its own special `new tty' line discipline, so the
> network code would have to know which tty driver to call.
> It made more sense to stack the modules instead, so the tty
> code was there only if it was needed, and different tty
> drivers could exist without the network code knowing or caring.
>
​Exactly....​



>
> When I arrived at the Labs in 1984, the streams code was in
> use daily by most of us in 1127.  The terminals on our desks
> were plugged into serial ports on Datakit (like what we call
> a terminal server now).

​Right... exactly what Greg and Dennis were trying to fix.​

How the top half of the tty handler had various needs and how to
efficiently implement it.
Some tty handlers had become quite sophisticated... UCB's line discipline
was just the start.

For instance, Steve Zimmerman did a version that was sort of combination of
UCB, ITS and TENEX that Masscomp would pick up (which I sometimes miss).
IIRC the argument, Greg's position was that we should be able to create
something that was user providable ultimately, that could make things as
fancy or as plain as an application needed.

Instead of doing stty/gtty calls to turn on cbreak or the like, an
application like emac/vi or whatever could ask for a very simple path
[Domain referred to the as 'borrowing' the path IIRC].   Other programs,
say the ed and Bourne shell might want something fairly fancy under the
covers.

The stacking scheme was so that we could easily define how chars would be
handled and which layer would handle them.
The problem, as you point out, was the transitions between different
'modes' - which the original line discipline code had trouble with and
stacking and unstacking only made worse.   But I digress.




>
> Later there was a TCP/IP that used the stream mechanism.

​Yup....   but was an afterthought .... look what I can do.
My point, it was a secondary effect... it was there and worked.



> ​....​
>
> All this is very different from the socket(2) way of thinking,
> and it has its vices, but it also has its virtues.
>

And yes, sockets had not (yet) completely taken over.
These were some of the experiments to see what would happen.

Now, what caused it to fail as a networking interface?

Clem
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