From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HTML_FONT_LOW_CONTRAST,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 10604 invoked from network); 2 Jan 2023 16:27:11 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (50.116.15.146) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 2 Jan 2023 16:27:11 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB09642410; Tue, 3 Jan 2023 02:26:47 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-vk1-f179.google.com (mail-vk1-f179.google.com [209.85.221.179]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 10D9A41C80 for ; Tue, 3 Jan 2023 02:26:34 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-vk1-f179.google.com with SMTP id g65so10731176vkh.8 for ; Mon, 02 Jan 2023 08:26:34 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ccc.com; s=google; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=ATn1vtJecRkuNAr6aHX487EqgN3I3oVKhlJdxPGGibU=; b=RWQYuyqNS41X2PI8Oyy5eGAtf1osIM/s7Okvb6EvAziTzQL6glZCnx75TrnBQzmecJ 26RK570zOpmVjAlq6Fe2WiI1w2Z2L4PTRyaPcHjV1ER2w57woLP00HEzbHUfLo2rhlI0 31bKb+Wnge5X4AaNglVm1LO/NhJvTmRofJB9A= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=ATn1vtJecRkuNAr6aHX487EqgN3I3oVKhlJdxPGGibU=; b=a5q9cvXuFjMX7t7zwFJ115mf95JGvlV2YZAUhkVRiElpQLk49V7FqBqr81p0Efv3Cs sxdGdq2wAdaD4UzT6CE+02DLFdUQA9m6CKGjV5U/I05zMUMzeflB2qa9/X/yrNyHP3qD G90aHyAaEJFhsiRTl5Jv8/1GEFB10LAN5zSUHuEj8UWyB6CtQY/sApRgFPzIP5VrXeJs UePtZDc9waYuTb1riDO2uV2bLrFQSrTDgOu6OoYvycCRVtiPXppzh/aHcxI/fDm8Eu7C c6Eq2D3KIbBiO90LhXaHkFy4Ywx3aVuFqHMwkMBIlp0gn+EYoE+P93ufwVZNzeK5AIjl e+wQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AFqh2kp9YCfhMh4nZUXlycZZJvtrmpZrt/RuiiflvtPliiRivdP6fjL6 y6K00fk5Cwiu8QZsvoFW3xjnufnvyuth+L8M2kChtA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AMrXdXvdqoIgs17be22asCRus3lUSvdOl4lhxs07P1rgGCEeoeB6jvn5dXElrNRMMmZs6ovDsWUc7G9nHEPTH95UoN4= X-Received: by 2002:a1f:5e8c:0:b0:3d5:7da9:da3b with SMTP id s134-20020a1f5e8c000000b003d57da9da3bmr1951416vkb.41.1672676732842; Mon, 02 Jan 2023 08:25:32 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <52FB6638-AEFF-4A4F-8C2E-32089D577BA0@planet.nl> <464819f0-d2f6-2a60-6481-a194f4428b4d@case.edu> <20221230200246.GW5825@mcvoy.com> <88f83b4c-b3f9-ed87-b2fa-560fb369742a@makerlisp.com> <20221231035931.GG5825@mcvoy.com> <528f0c53-ccc2-88a1-5a7b-120362c648dd@mhorton.net> In-Reply-To: <528f0c53-ccc2-88a1-5a7b-120362c648dd@mhorton.net> From: Clem Cole Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2023 11:25:06 -0500 Message-ID: To: Mary Ann Horton Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000007c4d2205f14a6683" Message-ID-Hash: WL5JDMJFG3ODSIY6OJ52L4TNPJJ36FPO X-Message-ID-Hash: WL5JDMJFG3ODSIY6OJ52L4TNPJJ36FPO X-MailFrom: clemc@ccc.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; header-match-tuhs.tuhs.org-0; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: tuhs@tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: A few comments on porting the Bourne shell List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: --0000000000007c4d2205f14a6683 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Be careful in applying modern judgments without remembering the historical context - below On Mon, Jan 2, 2023 at 12:12 AM Mary Ann Horton wrote: > On 12/30/22 20:23, Dave Horsfall wrote: > > Yep; whoever wrote CSH must've been high on something, as the syntax make= s > no sense whatsoever. > > Bill Joy wrote csh. He based it on the V6 shell. It made perfect sense a= t > the time. This was before the V7 Bourne shell came out. > Right -- let me add a little detail to this that might help. With the Fourth, Fifth, and Sixth Edition the default shell from Research is the Thompson shell. It's simple and un-adorn. Get the job done for typing, but as a formal scripting (programming) language is not easy to use. In fact, the command 'cd' idiom is still 'chdir' [add it was a typical local hack that many of did]. If you look at the USENIX tapes in the TUHS archives, in particular, the Harvard tape I suspect you will find a number of alternative shells that people had offered up from the different sites. With 'BSD' (the first UNIX distribution tape from the UCB Industrial Liasion Office of EECS which we often refer to on this list as 1BSD to distinguish it from the other releases - also available on TUHS], there is a new Berkeley shell, that Mary Ann points out Bill had created by modifying the Thompson shell and added some features to it. By the time of the 2BSD, the shell has been further been refined and by then renamed the csh, as the syntax had been made to approximate the C language. A big difference between the *Thompson Shell begets -> Berkeley Shell -> begets C Shell *and Bourne's work on his shell, is that Steve started from scratch. Steve had just come off many years of the Algol 68 project and was certainly extremely well-versed in the detailed subtleties of the semantics of language design. His higher bit was to create something *easier for people to write scripts using the -> small is beautiful -> Unix philosophy ideas*. Bill, on the other hand, is the quintessential hacker (My line is him in those days used to be: "He types open curly brace, close curly brace and he patches at 9600 baud.") Bill was interested in a shell that made typing easy, was not a load the system, and made it easy for >>him<< to write simple admin scripts. I would suggest both were 100% successful at what their purpose was. Like Larry, I have always been a meany and I have tried to make darned sure my folks (even to this day - we will see how long that last after I retire) use V7 syntax scripts - not bash, not even korn. As I said, the old UNIX hacker wisdom, has been "*Bourne to Program, Type with **Joy*" and you have a hard time going wrong. [FYI - while I have tcsh around, on my Mac these days I finally switched from tcsh to zsh as my default, but pretty much all of Bill's typing tricks are supported in zsh so the 'ROMs" in my fingers are happy after >40 years"] but all of my scripts are still V7 syntax - never been a reason to change that -- bigger issues usually found are GNU/Linux is not UNIX and Apple had to pee on things also. =E1=90=A7 --0000000000007c4d2205f14a6683 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Be careful in = applying modern judgments without remembering the=C2=A0historical=C2=A0cont= ext - below
On Mon, Jan 2, 2023 at 12:12 AM= Mary Ann Horton <mah@mhorton.net= > wrote:
=20 =20 =20
On 12/30/22 20:23, Dave Horsfall wrote: 
Yep; whoever wrote CSH must've been =
high on something, as the syntax makes=20
no sense whatsoever.

Bill Joy wrote csh. He based it on the V6 sh= ell.=C2=A0 It made perfect sense at the time. This was before the V7 Bourne shell came out.

Right -- let me a= dd a little detail to this that might help.=C2=A0With=C2=A0the F= ourth, Fifth, and Sixth Edition the default shell from Research=C2=A0is the= Thompson shell.=C2=A0 It's simple and un-adorn.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Get the jo= b done for typing, but as a formal scripting (programming) language is not = easy to use.

In fact, the command 'cd= ' idiom is still 'chdir' [add it was a typical local hack that = many of did].=C2=A0 If you look at=C2=A0the USENIX tapes in the TUHS archiv= es, in particular, the Harvard tape I suspect you will find a number of alt= ernative=C2=A0shells that=C2=A0people=C2=A0had offered up from the differen= t sites.

With 'BSD' (the first U= NIX distribution tape from the UCB Industrial Liasion=C2=A0Office of=C2=A0E= ECS which we often refer to=C2=A0on this list as 1BSD=C2=A0to distinguish i= t from the other releases - also available on TUHS], there is a new Berkele= y shell, that Mary Ann points out Bill had created by modifying the Thompso= n shell and added some features to it. By the time of the 2BSD, the shell h= as been further been refined and by then renamed the csh, as the syntax had= been made to approximate the C language.

A big difference between the Thompson Shell begets -> Berkeley Shell= -> begets=C2=A0C Shell and Bourne's work on his shell, is that = Steve started from scratch. Steve had just come off many years of the Algol= 68 project and was certainly extremely well-versed in the detailed subtlet= ies=C2=A0of the semantics of language design.=C2=A0 His higher bit was to c= reate something easier for people to write scripts using the -> sm= all is beautiful=C2=A0-> Unix philosophy ideas.

Bill, on the other=C2=A0hand, is the quintessential hacke= r (My line is him=C2=A0in those days used to be: "He types open curly = brace, close curly brace and he patches at 9600 baud.")=C2=A0 Bill was= interested in a shell that made typing easy, was not a load the system, an= d made it easy for >>him<< to write simple admin scripts.

I would suggest both were 100% successful at w= hat their purpose was.=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Like Larry, I have always been=C2=A0a m= eany and I have tried to make darned sure my folks (even to this day - we w= ill see how long that last after I retire) use V7 syntax scripts - not bash= , not even korn.=C2=A0 =C2=A0As I said, the old UNIX hacker wisdom, has bee= n "Bourne to Program, Type with Joy" and you have a= hard time going wrong.

[FYI - while I ha= ve tcsh around, on my Mac these days I finally=C2=A0switched from tcsh to z= sh as my default, but pretty much all of Bill's typing tricks are suppo= rted in zsh so the 'ROMs" in my fingers are happy after >40 yea= rs"] but all of my scripts are still V7 syntax - never been a reason t= o change=C2=A0that -- bigger issues usually=C2=A0found are GNU/Linux is not= UNIX and Apple had to pee on things also.=C2=A0
<= /div>
3D""=E1=90=A7
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