From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HTML_FONT_LOW_CONTRAST,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 9831 invoked from network); 3 Jul 2021 14:16:28 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (45.79.103.53) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 3 Jul 2021 14:16:28 -0000 Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id F17DF9C90D; Sun, 4 Jul 2021 00:16:25 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 534E19C86C; Sun, 4 Jul 2021 00:15:41 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=fail reason="signature verification failed" (1024-bit key; unprotected) header.d=ccc.com header.i=@ccc.com header.b="rHFD7P+V"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 465539C86C; Sun, 4 Jul 2021 00:15:39 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-qt1-f175.google.com (mail-qt1-f175.google.com [209.85.160.175]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 948569C864 for ; Sun, 4 Jul 2021 00:15:38 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-qt1-f175.google.com with SMTP id c13so8852680qtb.12 for ; Sat, 03 Jul 2021 07:15:38 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ccc.com; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=mRLiz8aMzKeZG4UXSpq3z3djdDNgaZpn6M54SFMySzg=; b=rHFD7P+VPfaQuLxpq/kRvfQFD3zC/RTgvGwJY5ltv06ui6YotgG7luL0pkqEbZEYni TRURpdN4m37aTI7Ih+U/wYmaN4wROZ9a27IciS/wARMi/uMd7ZHMC8kyvyJ6k3u6MFMP UVJ+8lUKUL2SOZQ7HK1taTy5/dKyfmiY5mtvc= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=mRLiz8aMzKeZG4UXSpq3z3djdDNgaZpn6M54SFMySzg=; b=YosSnRtWgTAumSD6MG0nakb0uOe9CDGKfqHEcs3WFXq65Bb2oU3FDYFzfOlMuj6X7v TaNzgxPbXFgGMdbSN4vp2slk9rDX6KtHgKefli2P/s5JqvcSu+LONDiDVaJ2NxQXtAAq cQ2eEprAg1r3gXaHX1T+Obec4lk5DkURCXR1sqIOaNK355HpOJxSs4MObxQw4UbA7cm0 +lxL1OzW0G7yvSYdQGS7aolQxbCDCnsNG+ZQ5K0F3pbh3CP8A3G6okuQ8fYtONtcC5U2 GHJmoFfoBrWlPv037cnaRXRp2dp7IMCNdsIsHGRoZVopay8Axq2wBkL4GpeZPl2z3irA ZdVw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532hHABn3abfICjC6y6Q2xat2677NN+hj15hchStyVngPB0meWgr 2Wce03xiCf4emjZ/Es9vAH/ywqIeiQ9itXHGwtGibg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJz56uZ4e3nl6odCAA9X0i6n1jtMLcL6wtpA/Dx9vmHC7H/IH27IdTJk+wLQn/UcpVBZg4kJqXo21A0TwTfKJkI= X-Received: by 2002:a05:622a:1988:: with SMTP id u8mr4517679qtc.354.1625321737454; Sat, 03 Jul 2021 07:15:37 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Clem Cole Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2021 10:15:11 -0400 Message-ID: To: Matt Day Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000ce9d5305c638b4d0" Subject: Re: [TUHS] First machine to run rogue? X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" --000000000000ce9d5305c638b4d0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Jul 2, 2021 at 10:22 PM Matt Day wrote: > I think you must be right about the first machine being something running > BSD UNIX. > Be careful when you say 'BSD'-- when people say "BSD UNIX" they *usually mean* a Unix release post-VAX support (*a.k.a.* 3BSD). We know for a fact that Rogue definitely ran on 16-bit PDP-11's - it's an open question of it needed the '17th bit' (*a.k.a.* separate I/D of the 11/45 class). As I said, I had on the TekLab's 11/70 in those days and I think I got it from Mark Bales, who was a UCB student in the CAD group which I would later join as a grad student. Plus Ken Arnold was originally part of the Ingres group, which famously had the only ArpaNet connection on campus at the time (Ing70 - which I have forgotten what it's one letter 'Berk-Net' id was -- Mary Ann might remember - *i.e*. all external email was shipped across the Berknet to Ing70 for processing). The original BSD (*a.k.a.* what we call 1BSD on this mailing list) and 2BSD, were already in the wild particularly at other University sites, since 1BSD had UCB Pascal in it and many schools in those days were using Pascal as their teaching language. But ... if you look at the tapes, there are tools and the C-shell, ex, and other tidbits, but the *kernel* running at UCB in those days is very much V6 and later V7 based - maybe with a few changes like some performance tweaks for nami and moving the I/O buffers (but those were from other places). The system people ran in those days (particularly on PDP-11s) is not nearly what we now think of as a 'pure-joy.' Truth is, until 4.1BSD, that is really were 'BSD' starts to take an identity of its own as being distinctly different from Research and both being loved and loathed by many -- Rob's 'cat -v' paper *et al.*. >From the timing, it is also quite possible Toy and Wichman had either a 3BSD or very early 4BSD Vax or just as likely V7 with 2BSD loaded. Just an old f*art who was there chiming in ... :-) Clem =E1=90=A7 --000000000000ce9d5305c638b4d0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Fri, Jul 2, 2021 at 10:22= PM Matt Day <fjarlq@gmail.com&g= t; wrote:
I think you must be right about the first machine being som= ething running BSD UNIX.
Be careful when you say 'BSD'-- when people say "BSD UN= IX" they usually=C2=A0mean=C2=A0a Unix release post-VAX<= /span>=C2=A0 support (a.k.a. 3BSD).

We know for a fact that Rogue definitely ran = on 16-bit PDP-11's - it's an open question of it needed the '17= th bit' (a.k.a. separate=C2=A0I/D of the=C2=A011/45 class).=C2= =A0 As I said, I had on the TekLab's=C2=A011/70 in those days and I thi= nk=C2=A0I got it from Mark Bales, who was a UCB student in the CAD group wh= ich I=C2=A0would=C2=A0later join as a grad student.

Plus Ken Arnold was originally part of the Ingres group, which f= amously had the only ArpaNet connection on campus at the time (Ing70 - whic= h=C2=A0I have forgotten=C2=A0what it's one letter 'Berk-Net' id= was -- Mary Ann might remember - i.e. all external email was shippe= d across the Berknet to Ing70 for processing).

The original=C2=A0BSD (a.k.a. wh= at we call 1BSD on this mailing list) and 2BSD, were already in the wild pa= rticularly at other University sites, since 1BSD=C2=A0had UCB Pascal in it = and many schools in those days were using Pascal as their teaching language= .=C2=A0 But ... if you look at the tapes, there are tools and the C-shell, = ex, and other tidbits, but the kernel=C2=A0running at UCB in those d= ays is very much V6 and later V7 based - maybe with a few changes like some= performance tweaks for nami and moving the I/O buffers (but those were fro= m other places).=C2=A0

The system people ran in those days (particu= larly on PDP-11s) is not nearly what we now think of as a 'pure-joy.= 9;=C2=A0 Truth is, until=C2=A04.1BSD, that is really were=C2=A0'BSD'= ; starts to take an identity of its own as being distinctly different from = Research and both being loved and loathed by many -- Rob's 'cat -v&= #39; paper et al..

From the timin= g, it=C2=A0is also quite possible Toy and Wichman had either=C2= =A0a 3BSD or very early 4BSD Vax or just as likely V7 with 2BSD loaded.

Just an old f*art who was there chiming in ...=C2=A0 =C2=A0= :-)

Clem
3D""=E1=90=A7
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