From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.1 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU,HTML_FONT_LOW_CONTRAST,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 21615 invoked from network); 5 Mar 2021 17:09:26 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (45.79.103.53) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 5 Mar 2021 17:09:26 -0000 Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 86F279CA71; Sat, 6 Mar 2021 03:09:21 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0CF19CA6A; Sat, 6 Mar 2021 03:08:54 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=pass (1024-bit key; unprotected) header.d=ccc.com header.i=@ccc.com header.b="kdJY0VWo"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 24E3E9CA6A; Sat, 6 Mar 2021 03:08:52 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-qt1-f178.google.com (mail-qt1-f178.google.com [209.85.160.178]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 484719CA68 for ; Sat, 6 Mar 2021 03:08:51 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-qt1-f178.google.com with SMTP id 2so2285534qtw.1 for ; Fri, 05 Mar 2021 09:08:51 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ccc.com; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=AcNRM8sM1X8DUU0S26dVoLJN+HWUEbqxkHCg1oTCads=; b=kdJY0VWoawlqZah26gOEWV977T+keA50bzbPQyvkM+aQW3YvRTbhjz8R/GqU9+gNEy rHwEpNAnQ3BwqyVgxmolcdAVqwE7/4w7C6OEtMWUaLFFLp1P8rVtJp8F0zXvlhHwqPGp N2P6pnUhwoDn7FVP90/03/dPE23JAhauM+Zc8= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=AcNRM8sM1X8DUU0S26dVoLJN+HWUEbqxkHCg1oTCads=; b=LkV32o608SfbQtRBVj9VE0Y541Y6CAQ1Okci6mMjKXK14Q598EmeHeYXSMVzg4bafV SqpxObOVg3+GW+CYQ7mWXOYA05DT79eDwgCk+VPCKLGLxHxKRHRTHgcdWQNfmWpu+chn eUOw2odDMsEuwwIIThQtCyAxgKwnqbJzL/1tyiXC6N/G2pUfQ9SFhdrEfTw0S6dv37Id h9vq/plFdpRe2h5bCjJjjlHijx9n/GLTPnRhZRnDny4v4AKy1RR3HmkmVHvwTQ+WL4i6 w7Fpcimrz+V/jA+pkRofn8eir/FNXA5WAw71SbosxFMQjQlX/DhUhNjjbxBH5RASClsh nTew== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5310ofog+V2dDzcSqG5pZV/QjDpZTH9EDLgZ3ri/MnZ6394Jz5Vm HLqARpDalsb/FVGS736wMG/TL0Hyje2yitGGh2uDng== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyIDk6S5w31wX5qTiQnnnmYVfoWdpNOOX2nO4vAkms+w0Sn8a/RfACrxHV9BgzII3coumeqPUvUzkMGq/SzCZk= X-Received: by 2002:ac8:4a90:: with SMTP id l16mr9581853qtq.33.1614964130085; Fri, 05 Mar 2021 09:08:50 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <57A1A023-7E73-4233-8FF2-CED5EB1CDB7C@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <57A1A023-7E73-4233-8FF2-CED5EB1CDB7C@gmail.com> From: Clem Cole Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2021 12:08:24 -0500 Message-ID: To: Will Senn Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000004c8ed005bccd2315" Subject: Re: [TUHS] tabs vs spaces - entab, detab X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: TUHS main list Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" --0000000000004c8ed005bccd2315 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Mar 4, 2021 at 9:07 PM Will Senn wrote: > Ha. I didn=E2=80=99t intend to reignite a flamewar. > I warned ya ... =F0=9F=A4=94 But, i=E2=80=99m still curious about entab/detab abd expand, etc. Were the= y oor > some of them created to help with this or what? > That's probably best for bwk, Ken, or Doug that go back to pre-UNIX times at BTL. As was pointed out, bwk had them the SW tools book, so the need/use go back pretty far. As someone else pointed out, in the days of printing terminals like the 10 cps horizontal tabs *sometimes* printed faster if they were a mechanical scheme built into the HW. On the other hand (and I don't feel like finding/looking up at an ASR 33 manual), my memory is that it did not have tabs stops and the UNIX TTY hander expanded them to spaces so even that was not going to help. Also as someone else said, in those days we had 132/133 column line printer listing - which again printed >>much<< faster than the 10 cps terminal. So the 8-space =3D 1 tab scheme certainly >>might<< make sense since it was enforced by the HW. Space was always an issue in the old days, but frankly; again I have no memory of thinking -- "better use tabs as it will save space in my file" or that it would process faster since few characters had to be read/written. I do remember the programs existing, but don't have any memories of ever using them. In my own case, I had been taught the golden rule of "use the style that is already in use" - which I admit, was a hard lesson when I was young I admit. But since I was working in those says supporting (assembler) code that existed, and I was very much the padawan to many great masters, I was trying to learn. At some point, I started to work with HLLS on the PDP-10, as opposed to IBM BAL and I started to But when I started to learn C, it was strange, since it forced me to accept 'one true bracing style' of the kernel/K&R even if it was different from what we had been using with BLISS/SAIL/Algol/Pascal from whence I just come. But like many people that have finished re-education camps, came to prefer and anything else ugly and difficult to read. =E1=90=A7 --0000000000004c8ed005bccd2315 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Thu, Mar 4, 2021 at 9:07 = PM Will Senn <w= ill.senn@gmail.com> wrote:
Ha. I didn=E2=80=99t intend to reignite= a flamewar.
I warned ya ... =C2=A0=F0=9F=A4=94

=C2=A0But, i=E2=80=99m still curious about entab/detab abd expand, etc.= Were they oor some of them created to help with this or what?
That's probably best for bwk, Ken, or Doug that go back = to pre-UNIX times at BTL.=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0As was pointed out, = bwk had them the SW tools book, so the need/use go back pretty far.=C2=A0

As someone else pointed out, = in the days of printing terminals like the 10 cps horizontal tabs someti= mes printed faster if they were a mechanical scheme built into the HW.= =C2=A0 On the other hand (and I don't feel like finding/looking=C2=A0up= at an ASR 33 manual), my memory is that it did not have tabs stops and the= UNIX TTY hander=C2=A0expanded them to spaces so even that was not going to= help.=C2=A0 Also as someone else said, in those days we had 132/133 column= line printer listing - which again printed >>much<< faster tha= n the 10 cps terminal.=C2=A0 =C2=A0So the 8-space =3D 1 tab scheme certainl= y >>might<< make sense since it was enforced by the HW.=C2=A0

Space was always an issue in t= he old days, but frankly; again I have no memory of thinking -- "bette= r use tabs as it will save space in my file" or that it would process = faster since few characters had to be read/written.=C2=A0 I do remember the= programs existing, but don't have any memories of ever using them.=C2= =A0

In my own case, I had been taught the golden rule = of "use the style that is already in use" - which I admit, was a = hard=C2=A0lesson when I was young I admit.=C2=A0 =C2=A0But since I was work= ing in those says supporting (assembler) code that existed, and I was very = much the padawan=C2=A0to many great masters, I was trying to learn.=C2=A0 = =C2=A0At some point, I started to work with HLLS on the PDP-10, as opposed = to IBM BAL and I started to=C2=A0

But when I started= to learn C, it was strange, since it forced me to accept 'one true bra= cing style' of the kernel/K&R even if it was different from what we= had been using with BLISS/SAIL/Algol/Pascal from whence I just come.=C2=A0= But like many people that have finished re-education camps, came to prefer= and anything else ugly and difficult to read.
3D""= =E1=90=A7
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