From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 12529 invoked from network); 24 Oct 2021 20:26:15 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (45.79.103.53) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 24 Oct 2021 20:26:15 -0000 Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 82E1D9D0A7; Mon, 25 Oct 2021 06:26:14 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A164B9D08D; Mon, 25 Oct 2021 06:25:45 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=fail reason="signature verification failed" (1024-bit key; unprotected) header.d=ccc.com header.i=@ccc.com header.b="dxXPUqK7"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 28D8B9D08D; Mon, 25 Oct 2021 06:25:43 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-qk1-f170.google.com (mail-qk1-f170.google.com [209.85.222.170]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1E29F9D08C for ; Mon, 25 Oct 2021 06:25:42 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-qk1-f170.google.com with SMTP id bl14so10026311qkb.4 for ; Sun, 24 Oct 2021 13:25:42 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ccc.com; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=DFYGmxtr5y4yv6zCOVvGvroH1BvVhVOyTjJjMFakMmQ=; b=dxXPUqK79B4ZxLYbFJpeSad+qR9Deavb/i/mgMOZoiejIogCgSRFBmNcrJW2JFTC7l 0GM1US4kC9MNB1+b3QjDarBzBAbqeQDSWzylGP3W9HWfO5gC5NVu+eOmi3vYSqAdVj1t iC2Oy5trFnFu+AyoorUOg41Bv6Fch+Cs7afHU= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=DFYGmxtr5y4yv6zCOVvGvroH1BvVhVOyTjJjMFakMmQ=; b=jC3gclKzMCfgugf6T9VtwzrmyC+RX+T5VOgX15PNDJdcuPga9mBJUFqT9WeuW46IB5 uDBjsWsjGIvH/tPCStgaUH3D/DTdxj3CA9/5/KdtTsVBngttw0BXFbuDv5t4CakkBhpT JkTq/a5chPV/TVLK9ZIY5h6Km81oGiPPDYvFN4gQaNhU3kUEOlU2CzdtZy/hN2lylBzP eE6kx55cbXZem4oLWfpDk1+cnIs7Svbp8ugBcpUXgEA8+42ydHwPyxlfgkZy2D+klMMQ vmnlFpPCWDzvjVz1qhZkFjaOXTpo+phkCyVZPU2CuhU4h6dSDqkzc2ClxK3ApIM6vpm6 f4nQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531LRe7qObG08KL9cku87QTKm/990pGT6JqlxexUuDk3d/QxIOP2 VfEit02HyWS29TIVrh/RNT7BXskwe5W2JvXXvp3HjA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzTwcbE+O398ZmOx7LgK1frPJlPKQY25/RubHZuRNQxdLYHE3wo7+ECXVLzDNeD9gA0NYfV8yEgd9ZSsM7bWIA= X-Received: by 2002:a05:620a:198f:: with SMTP id bm15mr10795292qkb.159.1635107140902; Sun, 24 Oct 2021 13:25:40 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <7wtuh6e6u6.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> In-Reply-To: From: Clem Cole Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2021 16:25:26 -0400 Message-ID: To: Warner Losh Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000004db63d05cf1f0cbc" Subject: Re: [TUHS] Unix NCP protocol stack for ARPANET X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" --0000000000004db63d05cf1f0cbc Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Sorry for typo and top posting on my iPhone for a few days as I'm traveling W/O a computer. Some thoughts. There a number of pdp11 stacks for ip and I assume we the ncp but they were not all sourced by bbn. A number were in assembler As Noel pointed out the first widely distributed Unix implementation for the ncp was the uici version. But there was a Rand stack around the same time and III ty hink Holmgren ended up at UCSB after his time at UICI. Im fairly sure there was cross polinartion but I don't know how much. In the IP space the 11 assembler version was the first u knew about. The first C version was the Haverty stack that became what knew of as the portable IP stack originally for the Nova. Rob Gurwitz (working) for Jack did the 4.1 code and was the original official Vax stack for DARPA. Joy's reimplementation for 4.1a was sort of unsanctioned and caused a bit of a rift as it was not a complete rewrite and officially BBN was doing the network support for the VAX for DARPA. CSRG was just supposed to being doing base OS. But the joy version is derrived from the Gurwitz/Havert work - For instance the famous mbuf code came from the DG Nova implementation a few years earlier. [I was once told mbufs came from Brown, but Jack said on the IH mailing list in the last year or so, he worked on them before Rob started his work]. Stan and I only had assembler and BLISS and Fortran on the Vax under VMS so I started at the DG version when we did something similar in the Tek version [it was not as elegant or as complicated and probably not as good]. As for other NCPs, PARC had MAXC on the net, but I thought it had originally a DG Nova front end that was replaced with an Alto. But the NCP ran as Nova code in BCPL in both. On Sun, Oct 24, 2021 at 3:30 PM Warner Losh wrote: > > > On Sun, Oct 24, 2021 at 12:41 PM Ron Natalie wrote: > >> There were definitely as many PDP-11's (most running UNIX) as there were >> DEC 10s in the glory days of the Arpanet. VAXes only rolled out toward >> the end of the NCP era. >> >> However, the last NCP host table shows this statistic for DEC machines on >> the NCP Arpanet >> >> VAX (UNIX): 58 >> PDP11(UNIX): 59 >> > > So as of 1980-12-31, you had 7th Edition and 32V in the wild. 3BSD was > late 1979 or early 1980. 4BSD was late 1980. > The Columbus Unix was also running on VAXen, but I don't have great dates > for that and most (all?) of those machines > were confined to internal AT&T. > > I recall reading, but don't recall where I read it, that the Urbana > networking was ported to 7th Edition. I tried to find > such source, but couldn't 18 months ago. 32V is basically the same as 7th > Edition, so would make a good candidate > for such a port, though 3BSD isn't so radically different, except in > buffer mapping, that it couldn't run there w/o much > effort. The VAX never had a V6 port that I've read about anywhere, though > I'll defer to others with better sources. > > I'd bet some $$$ that BBN did the port, but I have no good source for that > either. > > Warner > > -- Sent from a handheld expect more typos than usual --0000000000004db63d05cf1f0cbc Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Sorry for typo and top posting on my iPhone for a few day= s as I'm traveling W/O a computer. =C2=A0

Some thoughts. =C2=A0=C2=A0
There a number of pdp11 stacks for ip and I assum= e we the ncp but they were not all sourced by bbn.=C2=A0 A number were in a= ssembler=C2=A0

As Noel p= ointed out the first widely distributed Unix implementation for the ncp was= the uici version.=C2=A0 But there was a Rand stack around the same time an= d III ty hink Holmgren ended up at UCSB after his time at UICI.=C2=A0 Im fa= irly sure there was cross polinartion but I don't know how much.
<= div dir=3D"auto">
In the IP space the 11 assembl= er version was the first u knew about.=C2=A0 The first C version was the Ha= verty stack that became what knew of as the portable IP stack originally fo= r the Nova. =C2=A0 Rob Gurwitz (working) for Jack did the 4.1 code and was = the original official Vax stack for DARPA.=C2=A0 Joy's reimplementation= for 4.1a was sort of unsanctioned and caused a bit of a rift as it was not= a complete rewrite and officially BBN was doing the network support for th= e VAX for DARPA. CSRG was just supposed to being doing base OS.

But the joy version is derrived fro= m the Gurwitz/Havert work - For instance the famous mbuf code came from the= DG Nova implementation a few years earlier. =C2=A0[I was once told mbufs c= ame from Brown, but Jack said on the IH mailing list in the last year or so= , he worked on them before Rob started his work].
Stan and I only had assembler and BLISS and Fortr= an on the Vax under VMS so I started at the DG version when we did somethin= g similar in the Tek version [it was not as elegant or as complicated and p= robably not as good].

As= for other NCPs, PARC had MAXC on the net, but I thought it had originally = a DG Nova front end that was replaced with an Alto.=C2=A0 But the NCP ran a= s Nova code in BCPL in both.=C2=A0

On Sun, Oct 24, 2021 at 3:30 PM Warn= er Losh <imp@bsdimp.com> wrote:=
=

On Sun, Oct 24, 2021 at 12:41 PM Ron Natalie <ron@ronnatalie.com> wrote:
There were definitely a= s many PDP-11's (most running UNIX) as there were DEC 10s in the glory = days of the Arpanet.=C2=A0 =C2=A0VAXes only rolled out toward the end of th= e NCP era.=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0

However, the last NCP host= table shows this statistic for DEC machines on the NCP Arpanet
<= br>
VAX (UNIX):=C2=A0 58
PDP11(UNIX): 59

So as of 1980-12-31, you had 7th Edition and 32V in= the wild. 3BSD was late 1979 or early 1980. 4BSD was late 1980.
= The Columbus Unix was also running on VAXen, but I don't have great dat= es for that and most (all?) of those machines
were confined to in= ternal AT&T.

I recall reading, but don't r= ecall where I read it, that the Urbana networking was ported to 7th Edition= . I tried to find
such source, but couldn't 18=C2=A0months=C2= =A0ago. 32V is basically the same as 7th Edition, so would make a good cand= idate
for such a port, though 3BSD isn't so radically differe= nt, except in buffer mapping, that it couldn't run there w/o much
=
effort.=C2=A0 The VAX never had a V6 port that I've read about any= where, though I'll defer to others with better sources.

<= /div>
I'd bet some $$$ that BBN did the port, but I have no good so= urce for that either.

Warner

--
Sent from a handheld expect more typos t= han usual
--0000000000004db63d05cf1f0cbc--