From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HTML_FONT_LOW_CONTRAST,HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_32,HTML_MESSAGE, MAILING_LIST_MULTI,T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 32328 invoked from network); 11 May 2022 17:10:33 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (45.79.103.53) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 11 May 2022 17:10:33 -0000 Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 05A0C9C70B; Thu, 12 May 2022 03:10:32 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C7A09BA54; Thu, 12 May 2022 03:09:49 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=fail reason="signature verification failed" (1024-bit key; unprotected) header.d=ccc.com header.i=@ccc.com header.b="oWPzgc4R"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id B6FA89BA54; Thu, 12 May 2022 03:09:46 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-qk1-f180.google.com (mail-qk1-f180.google.com [209.85.222.180]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 331B19BA39 for ; Thu, 12 May 2022 03:09:46 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-qk1-f180.google.com with SMTP id k8so2752037qki.8 for ; Wed, 11 May 2022 10:09:46 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ccc.com; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=dvxe79tYQ6HVRgJ4MaNN50Ij4xpd1PbPK6sCVTyf7kE=; b=oWPzgc4RD+JutVEiYuXZlIMtnfwJFPuAHMw0C+nzcBlZqBh9gTyamN+hP2BVFDorJZ YBtSNg+vakJS5NkbRL2cCmw+mf2jCeJ6jDYVLgWcePeOU+oz1/SzmAofnfSb4m6YfmRr AIx21wRHBU9zOJ0aforv65r9w8C9PFFolDaYc= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=dvxe79tYQ6HVRgJ4MaNN50Ij4xpd1PbPK6sCVTyf7kE=; b=fTNB8yDbTolzmaGPqmkj72mvHd//vGi8EjgXslD4phhX6H2EqNNq+ETWB7NVLbqrp1 E+7pi6aWeOt0DGWY2gssGh8nl1BRHukJFYa6Fx02aGXmBoM4w4fQbMWXa/Rh8tE98HWJ 6gHwvGE89fsh05jeXk11dIB9isChYnbkRkl+KSdvYiPwnnZ0nMyX5ZnMgE0nIqF0IBaY HTiila7pIfjSPBmc5b46XYpq8NOg0gqdmOw+MGAuHzgPp8hq8VRrsz1RCDce1BuA4oCY 5qj7A2yNIJQ6nSaNIHeNdN5SffVT66cEyFZYoKmg5vu4Zq0HmXg0iA/OnA3bW+Bi98sg Emnw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530t8i3Jadro5AakKOhGmrFEW1GMsUcibEloxIe96QIJyG9sx9+5 E2sphaXMGBuuK8jlSTqPfvLQNJ7WWI3MOW+DkJt8Lg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzPIkxgv9G5Cs+OUyUWggznzxIsnudUWc7wgd9+j8H3JAA+Tou4DGeZvn3rua9ssBHGgPIwEAvhWBcaSFQm9Vg= X-Received: by 2002:a05:620a:f0d:b0:67e:1c14:bc5e with SMTP id v13-20020a05620a0f0d00b0067e1c14bc5emr19597771qkl.502.1652288985130; Wed, 11 May 2022 10:09:45 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <57977CE7-DDCC-4861-BBD2-843B9B9F51C2@ronnatalie.com> <1505232b-86bd-0d65-52c7-c8d19bd0663c@mhorton.net> In-Reply-To: From: Clem Cole Date: Wed, 11 May 2022 13:09:18 -0400 Message-ID: To: Paul Winalski Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000068ae905debf82ee" Subject: Re: [TUHS] First Unix-like OSes not derived from AT&T code? X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: TUHS main list Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" --000000000000068ae905debf82ee Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, May 11, 2022 at 12:44 PM Paul Winalski wrote: > Many of the non-standard innovations in VAX Fortran were adopted by > IBM and other vendors under pressure from the Fortran community. By > 1985 DEC was losing sales to other vendors in the HPTC world due to > lack of VAX Fortran features in f77. > I would put it a little differently. As far as I'm concerned the best piece of marketing that DEC ever did was convincing the world that VMS FTN was standard Fortran-77. So when you went into a VMS shop trying to sell a UNIX box (from any manufacturer), many (most) had written their code in VMS FTN, and thus your Fortran compiler needed to accept the DEC VMS extensions. The fact was most customers swore up and down they had written their code in F77, but the UNIX compiler would die trying to compile it and as Paul point out, even if you did get the local compiler to accept your sources from a syntactical standpoint, the code generator and optimizer used in the PCC-based F77 compilers was not int he same league at the DEC or IBM compilers of the day. As I have mentioned on this list previously, a year after MASSCOMP was founded and about 5 years before Sun figured this issue out, we had hired a number of ex-DEC languages folks and they wrote our compiler C and Fortran compilers using the same optimization techniques that DEC had honed. In fact, one of the reasons why we added the RSX/VMS AST scheme to RTU, was to make porting customer code from VMS that much easier [tjt and I drew the line on QIO since we already had a different async I/O scheme, but UNIX signals were so far from AST it was never going to work -- again as I have said, I can build UNIX/POSIX signals from ASTs, but not the other way round]. =E1=90=A7 --000000000000068ae905debf82ee Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Wed, May 11, 2022 at 12:4= 4 PM Paul Winalski <paul.wina= lski@gmail.com> wrote:
Many of the non-standard innovations in VAX Fortran were adop= ted by
IBM and other vendors under pressure from the Fortran community.=C2=A0 By 1985 DEC was losing sales to other vendors in the HPTC world due to
lack of VAX Fortran features in f77.=C2=A0
I would put it a little differently.=C2=A0 =C2=A0As far as I'm concerned the best piece of marketing=C2=A0that DEC eve= r did was convincing the world that VMS FTN was standard Fortran-77.=C2=A0 = =C2=A0So when you went into a VMS shop trying to sell a UNIX box (from any = manufacturer), many (most) had written their code in VMS FTN, and thus your= Fortran compiler needed to accept the DEC VMS extensions.=C2=A0 =C2=A0The = fact was most customers swore up and down they had written their code in F7= 7, but the UNIX compiler would die trying to compile it and as Paul point o= ut, even if you did=C2=A0get the local compiler to accept your sources from= a syntactical standpoint, the code generator and optimizer used=C2=A0in th= e PCC-based F77 compilers was not int he same league at the DEC or IBM comp= ilers of the day.

<= /span>
As I have mentioned on = this list previously, a year after MASSCOMP was founded and about 5 years b= efore Sun figured this issue out, we had hired a number of ex-DEC languages= folks and they wrote our compiler=C2=A0C and Fortran compilers using the s= ame optimization techniques that DEC had honed.=C2=A0 In fact, one of the r= easons why we added the RSX/VMS AST scheme to RTU, was to make porting cust= omer code from=C2=A0VMS that much easier [tjt and I drew the line on QIO si= nce we already had a different async I/O scheme, but UNIX signals were so f= ar from AST it was never going to work -- again as I have said, I can build= UNIX/POSIX signals from ASTs, but not the other way round].<= /div>
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