From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.1 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU,HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,HTML_MESSAGE, MAILING_LIST_MULTI,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [45.79.103.53]) by inbox.vuxu.org (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id 042a2ac8 for ; Sun, 15 Sep 2019 21:47:35 +0000 (UTC) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 84E359BD80; Mon, 16 Sep 2019 07:47:34 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7123E9BD1C; Mon, 16 Sep 2019 07:47:12 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=pass (1024-bit key; unprotected) header.d=ccc.com header.i=@ccc.com header.b="F8NJ/JvY"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 8B90E9BD1C; Mon, 16 Sep 2019 07:47:10 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-wr1-f49.google.com (mail-wr1-f49.google.com [209.85.221.49]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C05A89BA1C for ; Mon, 16 Sep 2019 07:47:09 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-wr1-f49.google.com with SMTP id a11so27117540wrx.1 for ; Sun, 15 Sep 2019 14:47:09 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ccc.com; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=K1+2n7YjC/UKQu+rlxRgQ+xU/uSR1cLqUnineInW9ZI=; b=F8NJ/JvYfp4djAeekLNBEJSDj0MicrW9+109Mfmgf/QFR/r3J7ShXr54DW2FiKrpxk 1W/p4su44gmnnrN1ZZkxixUtAidIw/69qfVzzKIWgSkS9iUX1rOex1cudA0BXAiVDfUB Z5iWtysDe6S02wJByqOhYhSwSzoZgA5dbp5+I= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=K1+2n7YjC/UKQu+rlxRgQ+xU/uSR1cLqUnineInW9ZI=; b=GDTzzrdMMQD2BkYjmlhbl+Z8FpXqtSOgg4VLm2Nywz1eGnx49f/Agn7JiLxahLsFD+ a1GXyaLdpyQAUeemCSwSB6ckG3h++EGWiSurR4rYPxoXfpRnSDkZv0XJeTnd8FecvR4Y tN8AihOY72oQRTqHd7NVafjdtCXXRJl4cb89bl8Jb2Ok7qCztz3R7Chea993112IYYXx u6ul50S6m9F8puBFhmg75HTmsJEm+R0iclG+zd1NyiHvX+7gzjEh57c4p0tfNmwWC508 ouw5K5bZBivcroZ7fx6NEV0riZLHRpaEY231TFBRaNK/qtQmVwnZ0t9zOG8mOgKv3kFt Ph8w== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXrgkcKq05QEoZbx/YR0r1is9TRSAse/nFr7QD4W5RcNkJNzkFj +u8jN/68Ol+1dpdBlpxtVO+ZvWw6nMKfQzzLia2onIZWJfs= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzKdAtcy64fT1g8EsZGqb/sqfK/uPYCPnfib5e+gR84+U2YEiibPE54mADrLSs+vk+m8WhLwWet5T6sYa48EyM= X-Received: by 2002:adf:f150:: with SMTP id y16mr7863188wro.71.1568584028325; Sun, 15 Sep 2019 14:47:08 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Clem Cole Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2019 17:46:42 -0400 Message-ID: To: Warner Losh Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000cf25c805929e6d75" Subject: Re: [TUHS] My EuroBSDcon talk (preview for commentary) X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" --000000000000cf25c805929e6d75 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Funny the things you think about at 3 in the AM. There are two other things missing from Warner's timeline that I think are important. A little about the clones and also about the commercial efforts (which turns out to be related as one might expect). The first UNIX clone that I know about was a V6 version by Whitesmiths, called Idris, I want to say in 1977/78. I believe that Michel's Gien's Pascal clone that he talked about a year later started out as V6, but morphed to V7 before he was done (and then later morphed again to become Chorus in a C++ rewrote). Mike Malcolm's Thoth (which "Thucks" by the way, my wife threw out my tee-shirt years ago;-) was a pseudo V6 clone. I don't think he tried to recompile V6 code, like he would with his later QNX efforts (and he wrote it in B, not C), but the model was V6 and he had seen and/or run V6 at Waterloo. By the time of V7, the clones do start showing up. Minux which everyone agreed was original, as well as Mark William's Coherent, which in the end AT&T backed off. But as Dennis said at the time something to the effect, that it was not clear they had directly used AT&T sources to build it, as much as the authors clearly had *seen/had access to UNIX operating and used it to build Coherent, plus they probably had seen the UNIX sources* at some point (this was important later when AT&T would make 'Trade Secret' claims). Idris is interesting in that when Plauger built it, he did get in trouble at the UDel USENIX when he tried to 'hawk it' and basically was booed (how he did was as much of a problem as that fact that he did it). But by that point, there was another commercial UNIX available. What's interesting is that there was not an official V6 redistribution license like there was for V7; so I'm not 100% sure I know how it was done and I would love to enlightened. I know this much of the story. As I mentioned before the first commercial user of UNIX was Rand Corporation in LA. Al Arms of AT&T legal wrote the original $15K/CPU license for them. I don't know how many of those licenses were made available, but I've always been under the impression it was under 10. Like a lot of people at the time, this was when the 'glass tty' was just showing up in force and Rand updated/wrote a version of ed(1) called the rand(1) editor [IIRC, its still available as the 'grand editor' from Dave Yost]. Shortly thereafter, Peter Weiner and Heinz would create a company in Santa Monica called, Interactive Systems Corp (ISC) and they provided v6 and copy of the Rand editor for some commercial folks (FYI - ISC would later do the original 386/UNIX port for AT&T, IBM and Intel but that's a different story, and eventually Sun would buy them years later). In fact, one of the things the folks at ISC did at the beginning was that they had worked with Perkin-Elmer and created a version of PE's 'Fox' terminal with modified ROMs that ran part of the Rand Editor in it [the Fox has a Motorola 6800 processor in it. CMU had a lot of the standard ones because they were $750 in 1978 which was very inexpensive]. Anyway, what would eventually become the 68000 development team in Austin (Les Crudele, Nick Trudenick, Tom Grunner et al) used the ISC system and those modified Foxes as their development system. What I don't know is how that license worked. I think what happened was ISC was selling 'support.' Motorola (or one of their customers) got a commercial license from AT&T and then got a support license from ISC with their additions. But frankly, I don't know. > --000000000000cf25c805929e6d75 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Funny the things you think about at 3 = in the AM.

There are=C2=A0two other things missing fro= m Warner's timeline that I think are important.=C2=A0 A little about th= e clones and also about the commercial=C2=A0efforts (which turns out to be = related as one might expect).


The first U= NIX clone that I know about was=C2=A0a V6 version by Whitesmiths, called Id= ris, I want to say in 1977/78.=C2=A0 =C2=A0I believe that Michel's Gien= 's Pascal clone that he talked about a year later started out as V6, bu= t morphed to V7 before he was done (and then later morphed again to become = Chorus in a C++ rewrote).=C2=A0 Mike Malcolm's Thoth (which "Thuck= s" by the way, my wife threw out my tee-shirt years ago;-) was a pseud= o V6 clone.=C2=A0 =C2=A0I don't think he tried to recompile V6 code, li= ke he would with=C2=A0his later QNX efforts (and he wrote it in B, not C), = but the model was V6 and he had seen and/or run V6 at Waterloo.
By the time of V7, the clones do start showing up. Minux which ev= eryone agreed was original, as well as Mark William's Coherent, which i= n the end AT&T backed off. But as Dennis said at the time something to = the effect, that it was not clear they had directly used AT&T sources t= o build it, as much as the authors clearly had seen/had access to UNIX o= perating and used it to build Coherent, plus they probably had seen the UNI= X sources at some point (this was important later when AT&T would m= ake 'Trade Secret' claims).

Idris is interesti= ng in that when Plauger built it, he did get in trouble at the UDel USENIX = when he tried to 'hawk it' and basically was booed (how he did was = as much of a problem as that fact that he did it).=C2=A0 But by that point,= there was another commercial UNIX available.=C2=A0 =C2=A0What's intere= sting is that there was not an official=C2=A0V6 redistribution license like= there was for V7; so I'm not 100% sure I know how it was done and I wo= uld love to enlightened.

I know this much of the story= .

As I mentioned before the first commercial=C2=A0user= of UNIX was Rand Corporation in LA.=C2=A0 Al Arms of AT&T legal wrote = the original $15K/CPU license for them.=C2=A0 =C2=A0I don't know how ma= ny of those licenses were made available, but I've always been under th= e impression it was under 10.=C2=A0 Like a lot of people at the time, this = was when the 'glass tty' was just showing up in force and Rand upda= ted/wrote a version of ed(1) called the rand(1) editor [IIRC, its still ava= ilable as the 'grand editor' from Dave Yost].

= Shortly thereafter, Peter Weiner and Heinz would create a company in Santa = Monica=C2=A0called, Interactive Systems Corp (ISC) and they provided v6 and= copy of the Rand editor for some commercial folks (FYI - ISC would later d= o the original 386/UNIX port for AT&T, IBM and Intel but that's a d= ifferent story, and eventually Sun would buy them years later).=C2=A0 =C2= =A0In fact, one of the things the folks at ISC did at the beginning was tha= t they=C2=A0had worked with Perkin-Elmer and created a version of PE's = 'Fox' terminal with modified ROMs that ran part of the Rand Editor = in it [the Fox has a Motorola 6800 processor in it.=C2=A0 CMU had a lot of = the standard ones because they were $750 in 1978 which was very inexpensive= ].=C2=A0 =C2=A0Anyway, what would eventually become the 68000 development t= eam in Austin (Les Crudele, Nick Trudenick, Tom Grunner et al) used the ISC= system and those modified Foxes as their development system.

<= /div>
What I don't know is how that license worked.=C2=A0 =C2=A0I thi= nk what happened was ISC was selling 'support.'=C2=A0 =C2=A0Motorol= a (or one of their customers) got a commercial license from AT&T and th= en got a support license from ISC with their additions.=C2=A0 But frankly, = I don't know.
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