* [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps @ 2019-06-23 23:10 Mary Ann Horton Gmail 2019-06-23 23:52 ` Arthur Krewat ` (6 more replies) 0 siblings, 7 replies; 67+ messages in thread From: Mary Ann Horton Gmail @ 2019-06-23 23:10 UTC (permalink / raw) To: tuhs [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1323 bytes --] Hunting around through my ancient stuff today, I ran across a 5.25" floppy drive labeled as having old Usenet maps. These may have historical interest. First off, I don't recognize the handwriting on the disk. It's not mine. Does anyone recognize it? (pic attached) I dug out my AT&T 6300 (XT clone) from the garage and booted it up. The floppy reads just fine. It has files with .MAP extension, which are ASCII Usenet maps from 1980 to 1984, and some .BBM files which are ASCII Usenet backbone maps up to 1987. There is also a file whose extension is .GRF from 1983 which claims to be a graphical Usenet map. Does anyone have any idea what GRF is or what this map might be? I recall Brian Reid having a plotter-based Usenet geographic map in 84 or 85. I'd like to copy these files off for posterity. They read on DOS just fine. Is there a current best practice for copying off files? I would have guessed I'd need a to use the serial port, but my old PC has DOS 2.11 (not much serial copying software on it) and I don't have anything live with a serial port anymore. And it might not help with the GRF file. I took some photos of the screen with the earliest maps (the ones that fit on one screen.) So it's an option to type things in, at least for the early ASCII ones. Thanks, Mary Ann [-- Attachment #2: Floppy-Label.png --] [-- Type: image/png, Size: 64393 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 67+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps 2019-06-23 23:10 [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps Mary Ann Horton Gmail @ 2019-06-23 23:52 ` Arthur Krewat 2019-06-24 0:02 ` Grant Taylor via TUHS 2019-06-23 23:57 ` Grant Taylor via TUHS ` (5 subsequent siblings) 6 siblings, 1 reply; 67+ messages in thread From: Arthur Krewat @ 2019-06-23 23:52 UTC (permalink / raw) To: tuhs Does the AT&T have a serial port? Kermit would be the way I'd go, but since you say you have nothing with serial ports, that could be a problem. A cheap usb-to-serial port might be in order. Then you can run Kermit 95 on a Windows 7 or earlier machine. (might work on later OS's too, but it's not supported) The flip side is how to get Kermit onto the DOS machine. I used a floppy recovery service a while back to read my old Commodore 64/PET disks - he was relatively inexpensive, and very responsive. http://retrofloppy.com/ On 6/23/2019 7:10 PM, Mary Ann Horton Gmail wrote: > Hunting around through my ancient stuff today, I ran across a 5.25" > floppy drive labeled as having old Usenet maps. These may have > historical interest. > > First off, I don't recognize the handwriting on the disk. It's not > mine. Does anyone recognize it? (pic attached) > > I dug out my AT&T 6300 (XT clone) from the garage and booted it up. > The floppy reads just fine. It has files with .MAP extension, which > are ASCII Usenet maps from 1980 to 1984, and some .BBM files which are > ASCII Usenet backbone maps up to 1987. > > There is also a file whose extension is .GRF from 1983 which claims to > be a graphical Usenet map. Does anyone have any idea what GRF is or > what this map might be? I recall Brian Reid having a plotter-based > Usenet geographic map in 84 or 85. > > I'd like to copy these files off for posterity. They read on DOS just > fine. Is there a current best practice for copying off files? I would > have guessed I'd need a to use the serial port, but my old PC has DOS > 2.11 (not much serial copying software on it) and I don't have > anything live with a serial port anymore. And it might not help with > the GRF file. > > I took some photos of the screen with the earliest maps (the ones that > fit on one screen.) So it's an option to type things in, at least for > the early ASCII ones. > > Thanks, > > Mary Ann > > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 67+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps 2019-06-23 23:52 ` Arthur Krewat @ 2019-06-24 0:02 ` Grant Taylor via TUHS 2019-06-24 0:35 ` Mary Ann Horton Gmail ` (2 more replies) 0 siblings, 3 replies; 67+ messages in thread From: Grant Taylor via TUHS @ 2019-06-24 0:02 UTC (permalink / raw) To: tuhs [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1166 bytes --] On 6/23/19 5:52 PM, Arthur Krewat wrote: > Does the AT&T have a serial port? > > Kermit would be the way I'd go, but since you say you have nothing with > serial ports, that could be a problem. A cheap usb-to-serial port might > be in order. Then you can run Kermit 95 on a Windows 7 or earlier > machine. (might work on later OS's too, but it's not supported) > > The flip side is how to get Kermit onto the DOS machine. Does Kermit have an option like INTERLNK & INTERSVR have where you can run a "copy COM1 INTERxxx.EXE" to push the software across the serial port? I wonder what the requirements are for INTERLNK & INTERSVR. I don't know if they would go back to (MS-)DOS 2.11 or not. > I used a floppy recovery service a while back to read my old Commodore > 64/PET disks - he was relatively inexpensive, and very responsive. > > http://retrofloppy.com/ If the machine is able to read the files without error, then a recovery service might not be necessary. IMHO it's a question of getting one or more copies onto something else so that the existing floppy isn't the only copy. -- Grant. . . . unix || die [-- Attachment #2: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature --] [-- Type: application/pkcs7-signature, Size: 4008 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 67+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps 2019-06-24 0:02 ` Grant Taylor via TUHS @ 2019-06-24 0:35 ` Mary Ann Horton Gmail 2019-06-24 0:53 ` Arthur Krewat 2019-06-24 0:50 ` Arthur Krewat 2019-06-24 21:07 ` Michael Kjörling 2 siblings, 1 reply; 67+ messages in thread From: Mary Ann Horton Gmail @ 2019-06-24 0:35 UTC (permalink / raw) To: tuhs These are great ideas. I can easily get USB-to-serial (and even USB-to-parallel) cables online that will fit the PC/XT compatible DB-25 plugs on the back of the PC. I'll have to figure out how to fiddle with the baud rates and such. I solved the GRF file puzzle. It turns out it's a text file - a Usenet article. And the same article is in the Google archive. https://groups.google.com/forum/#!search/group$3Anet.news.map$20philabs!dal/net.news.map/lhqyD7MOFe8/v0CQFMZyGboJ There is a cutoff notice at the end, both on the Usenet article and on the floppy file, but that may be intentional. I'll have some fiddling to do. Mary Ann On 6/23/19 5:02 PM, Grant Taylor via TUHS wrote: > On 6/23/19 5:52 PM, Arthur Krewat wrote: >> Does the AT&T have a serial port? >> >> Kermit would be the way I'd go, but since you say you have nothing >> with serial ports, that could be a problem. A cheap usb-to-serial >> port might be in order. Then you can run Kermit 95 on a Windows 7 or >> earlier machine. (might work on later OS's too, but it's not supported) >> >> The flip side is how to get Kermit onto the DOS machine. > > Does Kermit have an option like INTERLNK & INTERSVR have where you can > run a "copy COM1 INTERxxx.EXE" to push the software across the serial > port? > > I wonder what the requirements are for INTERLNK & INTERSVR. I don't > know if they would go back to (MS-)DOS 2.11 or not. > >> I used a floppy recovery service a while back to read my old >> Commodore 64/PET disks - he was relatively inexpensive, and very >> responsive. >> >> http://retrofloppy.com/ > > If the machine is able to read the files without error, then a > recovery service might not be necessary. IMHO it's a question of > getting one or more copies onto something else so that the existing > floppy isn't the only copy. > > > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 67+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps 2019-06-24 0:35 ` Mary Ann Horton Gmail @ 2019-06-24 0:53 ` Arthur Krewat 2019-06-24 0:56 ` Larry McVoy 2019-06-24 1:40 ` Bakul Shah 0 siblings, 2 replies; 67+ messages in thread From: Arthur Krewat @ 2019-06-24 0:53 UTC (permalink / raw) To: tuhs Both the AT&T and the USB cable will be "DTE" (Data Terminal Equipment - ala terminal) vs. "DCE" (Data Communication Equipment - ala modem) - you'll need a null-modem cable to correct that mismatch. Basically, if not using hardware handshake, swap pin 2 and 3. ;) On 6/23/2019 8:35 PM, Mary Ann Horton Gmail wrote: > These are great ideas. I can easily get USB-to-serial (and even > USB-to-parallel) cables online that will fit the PC/XT compatible > DB-25 plugs on the back of the PC. I'll have to figure out how to > fiddle with the baud rates and such. > > I solved the GRF file puzzle. It turns out it's a text file - a > Usenet article. And the same article is in the Google archive. > > https://groups.google.com/forum/#!search/group$3Anet.news.map$20philabs!dal/net.news.map/lhqyD7MOFe8/v0CQFMZyGboJ > > > There is a cutoff notice at the end, both on the Usenet article and on > the floppy file, but that may be intentional. I'll have some fiddling > to do. > > Mary Ann > > On 6/23/19 5:02 PM, Grant Taylor via TUHS wrote: >> On 6/23/19 5:52 PM, Arthur Krewat wrote: >>> Does the AT&T have a serial port? >>> >>> Kermit would be the way I'd go, but since you say you have nothing >>> with serial ports, that could be a problem. A cheap usb-to-serial >>> port might be in order. Then you can run Kermit 95 on a Windows 7 or >>> earlier machine. (might work on later OS's too, but it's not supported) >>> >>> The flip side is how to get Kermit onto the DOS machine. >> >> Does Kermit have an option like INTERLNK & INTERSVR have where you >> can run a "copy COM1 INTERxxx.EXE" to push the software across the >> serial port? >> >> I wonder what the requirements are for INTERLNK & INTERSVR. I don't >> know if they would go back to (MS-)DOS 2.11 or not. >> >>> I used a floppy recovery service a while back to read my old >>> Commodore 64/PET disks - he was relatively inexpensive, and very >>> responsive. >>> >>> http://retrofloppy.com/ >> >> If the machine is able to read the files without error, then a >> recovery service might not be necessary. IMHO it's a question of >> getting one or more copies onto something else so that the existing >> floppy isn't the only copy. >> >> >> > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 67+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps 2019-06-24 0:53 ` Arthur Krewat @ 2019-06-24 0:56 ` Larry McVoy 2019-06-24 1:12 ` Arthur Krewat 2019-06-24 1:40 ` Bakul Shah 1 sibling, 1 reply; 67+ messages in thread From: Larry McVoy @ 2019-06-24 0:56 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Arthur Krewat; +Cc: tuhs Arthur's comments bring back some memories. I probably still have this, a ribbon serial cable with male and female connectors on both ends and a breadboard in the middle. I could hook anything to anything :) That said, I'm *ecstatic* that I no longer have to deal with serial ports. On Sun, Jun 23, 2019 at 08:53:19PM -0400, Arthur Krewat wrote: > Both the AT&T and the USB cable will be "DTE" (Data Terminal Equipment - ala > terminal) vs. "DCE" (Data Communication Equipment - ala modem) - you'll need > a null-modem cable to correct that mismatch. Basically, if not using > hardware handshake, swap pin 2 and 3. ;) > > > On 6/23/2019 8:35 PM, Mary Ann Horton Gmail wrote: > >These are great ideas. I can easily get USB-to-serial (and even > >USB-to-parallel) cables online that will fit the PC/XT compatible DB-25 > >plugs on the back of the PC.?? I'll have to figure out how to fiddle with > >the baud rates and such. > > > >I solved the GRF file puzzle.?? It turns out it's a text file - a Usenet > >article. And the same article is in the Google archive. > > > >https://groups.google.com/forum/#!search/group$3Anet.news.map$20philabs!dal/net.news.map/lhqyD7MOFe8/v0CQFMZyGboJ > > > > > >There is a cutoff notice at the end, both on the Usenet article and on the > >floppy file, but that may be intentional.?? I'll have some fiddling to do. > > > >?????? Mary Ann > > > >On 6/23/19 5:02 PM, Grant Taylor via TUHS wrote: > >>On 6/23/19 5:52 PM, Arthur Krewat wrote: > >>>Does the AT&T have a serial port? > >>> > >>>Kermit would be the way I'd go, but since you say you have nothing > >>>with serial ports, that could be a problem. A cheap usb-to-serial port > >>>might be in order. Then you can run Kermit 95 on a Windows 7 or > >>>earlier machine. (might work on later OS's too, but it's not > >>>supported) > >>> > >>>The flip side is how to get Kermit onto the DOS machine. > >> > >>Does Kermit have an option like INTERLNK & INTERSVR have where you can > >>run a "copy COM1 INTERxxx.EXE" to push the software across the serial > >>port? > >> > >>I wonder what the requirements are for INTERLNK & INTERSVR. I don't know > >>if they would go back to (MS-)DOS 2.11 or not. > >> > >>>I used a floppy recovery service a while back to read my old Commodore > >>>64/PET disks - he was relatively inexpensive, and very responsive. > >>> > >>>http://retrofloppy.com/ > >> > >>If the machine is able to read the files without error, then a recovery > >>service might not be necessary.?? IMHO it's a question of getting one or > >>more copies onto something else so that the existing floppy isn't the > >>only copy. > >> > >> > >> > > -- --- Larry McVoy lm at mcvoy.com http://www.mcvoy.com/lm ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 67+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps 2019-06-24 0:56 ` Larry McVoy @ 2019-06-24 1:12 ` Arthur Krewat 2019-06-24 1:31 ` William Pechter 0 siblings, 1 reply; 67+ messages in thread From: Arthur Krewat @ 2019-06-24 1:12 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Larry McVoy; +Cc: tuhs On 6/23/2019 8:56 PM, Larry McVoy wrote: > Arthur's comments bring back some memories. I probably still have this, > a ribbon serial cable with male and female connectors on both ends and > a breadboard in the middle. I could hook anything to anything :) > > That said, I'm *ecstatic* that I no longer have to deal with serial ports. > I did a lot of work with RS232 in the 80's to the point where my friend said I had coined a new phrase - basically sounds like "Are-Ess-too-turdy-too" said really fast ;) (I'm from NY) From serial lines that were slow, going to parallel interfaces for printers, parallel SCSI, and a few other parallel interfaces, I thought were nice, now we've gone back to SATA, SAS and PCI-E lanes that are basically serial interfaces. I have an RS232 breakout box I use for situations like this. Still having to deal with DTE-DCE issues to this day with Cisco, Nortel/Avaya, and other network, telecom or even SAN equipment. A recent Dell Compellent SC7xxxx I installed came with a USB cable, but it's really a USB to RS232 interface built into the controllers. SMH. ak ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 67+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps 2019-06-24 1:12 ` Arthur Krewat @ 2019-06-24 1:31 ` William Pechter 2019-06-24 1:51 ` Arthur Krewat 0 siblings, 1 reply; 67+ messages in thread From: William Pechter @ 2019-06-24 1:31 UTC (permalink / raw) To: tuhs On 6/23/2019 9:12 PM, Arthur Krewat wrote: > > On 6/23/2019 8:56 PM, Larry McVoy wrote: >> Arthur's comments bring back some memories. I probably still have this, >> a ribbon serial cable with male and female connectors on both ends and >> a breadboard in the middle. I could hook anything to anything :) >> >> That said, I'm *ecstatic* that I no longer have to deal with serial >> ports. >> > > I did a lot of work with RS232 in the 80's to the point where my > friend said I had coined a new phrase - basically sounds like > "Are-Ess-too-turdy-too" said really fast ;) (I'm from NY) > > From serial lines that were slow, going to parallel interfaces for > printers, parallel SCSI, and a few other parallel interfaces, I > thought were nice, now we've gone back to SATA, SAS and PCI-E lanes > that are basically serial interfaces. > > I have an RS232 breakout box I use for situations like this. Still > having to deal with DTE-DCE issues to this day with Cisco, > Nortel/Avaya, and other network, telecom or even SAN equipment. A > recent Dell Compellent SC7xxxx I installed came with a USB cable, but > it's really a USB to RS232 interface built into the controllers. SMH. > > ak > > I'm still partial to having machines with real serial ports on 'em although I have all the USB serial/parallel cables as well. Still have a couple of desktops with Real RS232 ports just in case. My old K6-2 has both the 5 1/4 and 3 1/2 inch floppies -- just in case. Bill ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 67+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps 2019-06-24 1:31 ` William Pechter @ 2019-06-24 1:51 ` Arthur Krewat 0 siblings, 0 replies; 67+ messages in thread From: Arthur Krewat @ 2019-06-24 1:51 UTC (permalink / raw) To: tuhs On 6/23/2019 9:31 PM, William Pechter wrote: > I'm still partial to having machines with real serial ports on 'em > although I have all the USB serial/parallel cables as well. > > Still have a couple of desktops with Real RS232 ports just in case. > My old K6-2 has both the 5 1/4 and 3 1/2 inch floppies -- just in case. Oh, so do I - one notable thing recently, a few Dell T7910 workstations (huge mothers, dual Xeons, plumbed x16 PCI-E interfaces to the second CPU, etc) actually had a male DB9 on the back. I was somewhat impressed. ak ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 67+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps 2019-06-24 0:53 ` Arthur Krewat 2019-06-24 0:56 ` Larry McVoy @ 2019-06-24 1:40 ` Bakul Shah 2019-06-24 3:20 ` Grant Taylor via TUHS 1 sibling, 1 reply; 67+ messages in thread From: Bakul Shah @ 2019-06-24 1:40 UTC (permalink / raw) To: tuhs On Sun, 23 Jun 2019 20:53:19 -0400 Arthur Krewat <krewat@kilonet.net> wrote: > Both the AT&T and the USB cable will be "DTE" (Data Terminal Equipment - > ala terminal) vs. "DCE" (Data Communication Equipment - ala modem) - > you'll need a null-modem cable to correct that mismatch. Basically, if > not using hardware handshake, swap pin 2 and 3. ;) Since mid 80s I have used Dave Yost's wiring scheme that converts a DB-25 or DB-9 adapter to an RJ-45 socket: http://yost.com/computers/RJ45-serial/ You wire any DB-25 or DB-9 DCE or DTE male or female adapter so that the RJ-45 socket has the above pinout. You figure out which device needs what kind of adapter and permanently attach the adapter. Now you can use a standard "half-twist" phone cable with 4, 6 or 8 wires and connect anything to anything. My last device with a real RS-232 interface (a CP-290 X10 controller) where I used this died 4-5 years ago. I still use serial ports on RaspberryPis but talk to them via serial<->USB adapters (these are 3.3V uarts). ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 67+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps 2019-06-24 1:40 ` Bakul Shah @ 2019-06-24 3:20 ` Grant Taylor via TUHS 0 siblings, 0 replies; 67+ messages in thread From: Grant Taylor via TUHS @ 2019-06-24 3:20 UTC (permalink / raw) To: tuhs [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 603 bytes --] On 6/23/19 7:40 PM, Bakul Shah wrote: > Since mid 80s I have used Dave Yost's wiring scheme that converts a > DB-25 or DB-9 adapter to an RJ-45 socket: > > http://yost.com/computers/RJ45-serial/ > > You wire any DB-25 or DB-9 DCE or DTE male or female adapter so > that the RJ-45 socket has the above pinout. You figure out which > device needs what kind of adapter and permanently attach the adapter. > Now you can use a standard "half-twist" phone cable with 4, 6 or 8 > wires and connect anything to anything. +10 for Yost wiring scheme. -- Grant. . . . unix || die [-- Attachment #2: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature --] [-- Type: application/pkcs7-signature, Size: 4008 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 67+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps 2019-06-24 0:02 ` Grant Taylor via TUHS 2019-06-24 0:35 ` Mary Ann Horton Gmail @ 2019-06-24 0:50 ` Arthur Krewat 2019-06-24 21:07 ` Michael Kjörling 2 siblings, 0 replies; 67+ messages in thread From: Arthur Krewat @ 2019-06-24 0:50 UTC (permalink / raw) To: tuhs Another thing to think about, and that's only because I'm a dumpster-diver, is what's in the unallocated sectors? ;) On 6/23/2019 8:02 PM, Grant Taylor via TUHS wrote: > On 6/23/19 5:52 PM, Arthur Krewat wrote: >> Does the AT&T have a serial port? >> >> Kermit would be the way I'd go, but since you say you have nothing >> with serial ports, that could be a problem. A cheap usb-to-serial >> port might be in order. Then you can run Kermit 95 on a Windows 7 or >> earlier machine. (might work on later OS's too, but it's not supported) >> >> The flip side is how to get Kermit onto the DOS machine. > > Does Kermit have an option like INTERLNK & INTERSVR have where you can > run a "copy COM1 INTERxxx.EXE" to push the software across the serial > port? Not that I'm aware of. Things like NULs, and ^S can really ruin your day. Not to mention ^Z which a DOS copy might interpret as EOF. I only ever wrote programs to access the UART directly, but I remember my attempts at COPY or other DOS-specific ways of dealing with serial ports were never very successful. But that might have had more to do with buffer overruns (or in the case of the 8250 in the XT, a lack of a FIFO ala-16550 in the first place). Redirecting LPT1 to COM1 using MODE, I used to print to an LA100 using hardware handshaking. >> I used a floppy recovery service a while back to read my old >> Commodore 64/PET disks - he was relatively inexpensive, and very >> responsive. >> >> http://retrofloppy.com/ > > If the machine is able to read the files without error, then a > recovery service might not be necessary. IMHO it's a question of > getting one or more copies onto something else so that the existing > floppy isn't the only copy. Of course, but in some cases, a few $'s thrown at the problem is easier than messing around with something you don't want to mess around with ;) I would be happy to contribute. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 67+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps 2019-06-24 0:02 ` Grant Taylor via TUHS 2019-06-24 0:35 ` Mary Ann Horton Gmail 2019-06-24 0:50 ` Arthur Krewat @ 2019-06-24 21:07 ` Michael Kjörling 2019-06-24 21:30 ` Steve Nickolas 2 siblings, 1 reply; 67+ messages in thread From: Michael Kjörling @ 2019-06-24 21:07 UTC (permalink / raw) To: tuhs On 23 Jun 2019 18:02 -0600, from tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org (Grant Taylor via TUHS): > I wonder what the requirements are for INTERLNK & INTERSVR. I don't know if > they would go back to (MS-)DOS 2.11 or not. The OS/2 Museum claims at [1] that the network redirector was added in 3.0. I'd expect INTERLNK/INTERSVR to need redirector support, and if that assumption is correct, those wouldn't work on any pre-3.0 versions of Microsoft's DOS (whether MS-DOS or PC-DOS), and support may be spotty on versions earlier than the one where they were introduced depending on which exact features are used. Also, a cursory glance at a MS-DOS 3.1 user's manual and user's reference that I have lying around does not list INTERLNK/INTERSRV in the command reference, so those would presumably have come later than that. Wikipedia appears to confirm this at [2] by claiming they were introduced in PC-DOS 5.02 / MS-DOS 6.0; the cited source at [3], [4] simply says "6.0 and later" without specifying a variant. So, almost certainly not that easy, unfortunately. [1] http://www.os2museum.com/wp/dos/dos-3-0-3-2/ [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_DOS_commands#INTERSVR_and_INTERLNK [3] http://www.easydos.com/interlink.html [4] http://www.easydos.com/intersvr.html -- Michael Kjörling • https://michael.kjorling.se • michael@kjorling.se “The most dangerous thought that you can have as a creative person is to think you know what you’re doing.” (Bret Victor) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 67+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps 2019-06-24 21:07 ` Michael Kjörling @ 2019-06-24 21:30 ` Steve Nickolas 2019-06-24 21:59 ` Gregg Levine 0 siblings, 1 reply; 67+ messages in thread From: Steve Nickolas @ 2019-06-24 21:30 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Michael Kjörling; +Cc: tuhs [-- Attachment #1: Type: TEXT/PLAIN, Size: 1284 bytes --] On Mon, 24 Jun 2019, Michael Kjörling wrote: > The OS/2 Museum claims at [1] that the network redirector was added in > 3.0. I'd expect INTERLNK/INTERSVR to need redirector support, and if > that assumption is correct, those wouldn't work on any pre-3.0 > versions of Microsoft's DOS (whether MS-DOS or PC-DOS), and support > may be spotty on versions earlier than the one where they were > introduced depending on which exact features are used. A prototype was introduced in 3.0; it wasn't exactly usable until 3.1 iirc. > Also, a cursory glance at a MS-DOS 3.1 user's manual and user's > reference that I have lying around does not list INTERLNK/INTERSRV in > the command reference, so those would presumably have come later than > that. Wikipedia appears to confirm this at [2] by claiming they were > introduced in PC-DOS 5.02 / MS-DOS 6.0; the cited source at [3], [4] > simply says "6.0 and later" without specifying a variant. I can confirm the presence of Interlnk in PC DOS 5.02 as well as MS-DOS 6.00 (and this is why I specifically mentioned those versions). I've done a lot of research on MS-DOS/PC DOS history. ;p Interlnk does have a way, as I mentioned, to copy itself over a serial cable. I suppose it probably relies on CTTY and DEBUG or something. -uso. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 67+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps 2019-06-24 21:30 ` Steve Nickolas @ 2019-06-24 21:59 ` Gregg Levine 0 siblings, 0 replies; 67+ messages in thread From: Gregg Levine @ 2019-06-24 21:59 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Tuhs Hello! And I can confirm that it does work on DOS 3.30. I wasn't aware that it had that sort of history, but such are things. I've used it to send things from a small portable to a laptop the laptop ran DOS 6.22, and the portable was running 3.30 Mary Anne you own an AT&T PC 6300? Wow, I got my start along the regular desktop market with one. And their 80286 version as well. ----- Gregg C Levine gregg.drwho8@gmail.com "This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again." On Mon, Jun 24, 2019 at 5:31 PM Steve Nickolas <usotsuki@buric.co> wrote: > > On Mon, 24 Jun 2019, Michael Kjörling wrote: > > > The OS/2 Museum claims at [1] that the network redirector was added in > > 3.0. I'd expect INTERLNK/INTERSVR to need redirector support, and if > > that assumption is correct, those wouldn't work on any pre-3.0 > > versions of Microsoft's DOS (whether MS-DOS or PC-DOS), and support > > may be spotty on versions earlier than the one where they were > > introduced depending on which exact features are used. > > A prototype was introduced in 3.0; it wasn't exactly usable until 3.1 > iirc. > > > Also, a cursory glance at a MS-DOS 3.1 user's manual and user's > > reference that I have lying around does not list INTERLNK/INTERSRV in > > the command reference, so those would presumably have come later than > > that. Wikipedia appears to confirm this at [2] by claiming they were > > introduced in PC-DOS 5.02 / MS-DOS 6.0; the cited source at [3], [4] > > simply says "6.0 and later" without specifying a variant. > > I can confirm the presence of Interlnk in PC DOS 5.02 as well as MS-DOS > 6.00 (and this is why I specifically mentioned those versions). I've done > a lot of research on MS-DOS/PC DOS history. ;p > > Interlnk does have a way, as I mentioned, to copy itself over a serial > cable. I suppose it probably relies on CTTY and DEBUG or something. > > -uso. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 67+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps 2019-06-23 23:10 [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps Mary Ann Horton Gmail 2019-06-23 23:52 ` Arthur Krewat @ 2019-06-23 23:57 ` Grant Taylor via TUHS 2019-06-24 0:40 ` Mary Ann Horton Gmail 2019-06-24 1:57 ` Steve Nickolas 2019-06-24 0:03 ` Theodore Ts'o ` (4 subsequent siblings) 6 siblings, 2 replies; 67+ messages in thread From: Grant Taylor via TUHS @ 2019-06-23 23:57 UTC (permalink / raw) To: tuhs [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2163 bytes --] On 6/23/19 5:10 PM, Mary Ann Horton Gmail wrote: > Hunting around through my ancient stuff today, I ran across a 5.25" > floppy drive labeled as having old Usenet maps. These may have > historical interest. Intriguing. > First off, I don't recognize the handwriting on the disk. It's not mine. > Does anyone recognize it? (pic attached) > > I dug out my AT&T 6300 (XT clone) from the garage and booted it up. The > floppy reads just fine. It has files with .MAP extension, which are > ASCII Usenet maps from 1980 to 1984, and some .BBM files which are ASCII > Usenet backbone maps up to 1987. > > There is also a file whose extension is .GRF from 1983 which claims to > be a graphical Usenet map. Does anyone have any idea what GRF is or > what this map might be? I recall Brian Reid having a plotter-based > Usenet geographic map in 84 or 85. Hum. > I'd like to copy these files off for posterity. They read on DOS just > fine. Is there a current best practice for copying off files? I would > have guessed I'd need a to use the serial port, but my old PC has DOS > 2.11 (not much serial copying software on it) and I don't have anything > live with a serial port anymore. And it might not help with the GRF file. I wonder if you could get away with something as simple as a null modem cable and the following commands: Source: copy a:\file COM1 Destination: copy COM1 c:\file Does the source machine have a hard drive? Do you have a blank (sacrificial) floppy disk? Can you copy the files anywhere so that they are in more than one place? Do you have a printer that you could create a (hexadecimal) printout? Do you have a machine that can accept a USB-to-Serial adapter? What about something like a Raspberry Pi? It has a serial port (though it needs a level shifter). > I took some photos of the screen with the earliest maps (the ones that > fit on one screen.) So it's an option to type things in, at least for > the early ASCII ones. I'd be interested in seeing them. Do you have a place that you can upload them to? -- Grant. . . . unix || die [-- Attachment #2: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature --] [-- Type: application/pkcs7-signature, Size: 4008 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 67+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps 2019-06-23 23:57 ` Grant Taylor via TUHS @ 2019-06-24 0:40 ` Mary Ann Horton Gmail 2019-06-24 1:37 ` William Pechter 2019-06-24 3:17 ` Jason Stevens 2019-06-24 1:57 ` Steve Nickolas 1 sibling, 2 replies; 67+ messages in thread From: Mary Ann Horton Gmail @ 2019-06-24 0:40 UTC (permalink / raw) To: tuhs I put the screenshots (literally - with my phone) here: http://maryannhorton.com/usenet/ Note the preposterous claim that the 4/15/81 map is the "Backbone" - I have no idea where that came from. The backbone was first proposed 2 years later. Clearly this is a full map of Usenet as of 4/15/81. Mary Ann On 6/23/19 4:57 PM, Grant Taylor via TUHS wrote: > >> I took some photos of the screen with the earliest maps (the ones >> that fit on one screen.) So it's an option to type things in, at >> least for the early ASCII ones. > > I'd be interested in seeing them. Do you have a place that you can > upload them to? > > > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 67+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps 2019-06-24 0:40 ` Mary Ann Horton Gmail @ 2019-06-24 1:37 ` William Pechter 2019-06-24 3:17 ` Jason Stevens 1 sibling, 0 replies; 67+ messages in thread From: William Pechter @ 2019-06-24 1:37 UTC (permalink / raw) To: tuhs On 6/23/2019 8:40 PM, Mary Ann Horton Gmail wrote: > I put the screenshots (literally - with my phone) here: > > http://maryannhorton.com/usenet/ > > Note the preposterous claim that the 4/15/81 map is the "Backbone" - I > have no idea where that came from. The backbone was first proposed 2 > years later. Clearly this is a full map of Usenet as of 4/15/81. > > Mary Ann > > On 6/23/19 4:57 PM, Grant Taylor via TUHS wrote: >> >>> I took some photos of the screen with the earliest maps (the ones >>> that fit on one screen.) So it's an option to type things in, at >>> least for the early ASCII ones. >> >> I'd be interested in seeing them. Do you have a place that you can >> upload them to? >> >> >> I checked my maps and have a version from 1996 and 2000... Ah for the days of being one hop from the house to !pyramid and the rest of the world. Bill ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 67+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps 2019-06-24 0:40 ` Mary Ann Horton Gmail 2019-06-24 1:37 ` William Pechter @ 2019-06-24 3:17 ` Jason Stevens 1 sibling, 0 replies; 67+ messages in thread From: Jason Stevens @ 2019-06-24 3:17 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Mary Ann Horton Gmail, tuhs [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 3170 bytes --] I found the posting reference here: http://maryannhorton.com/usenet/010180.MAP.jpg https://utzoo.superglobalmegacorp.com/usenet/news005f1/b12/net.general/1501.txt http://maryannhorton.com/usenet/032183.BBM.jpg https://utzoo.superglobalmegacorp.com/usenet/news004f1/b11/net.news/541.txt http://maryannhorton.com/usenet/040581.MAP.jpg The map is mentioned in here: http://www.ais.org/~ronda/new.papers/articles/earlyversion.arpanet.txt As far as BBM files I just find this: Name: Graphics Display System (GDS) Purpose: Image display, conversion, thumbnail catalogs Version: 3.1e Author: Photodex Corporation <photodex@netcom.com> FTP: ftp://ftp.netcom.com/pub/ph/photodex CIS: GO PHOTODEX, GDS Viewing Software (Lib 3) Imports: ANS (ANSI text), BBM, BMF, BMP, CUT/PAL (Dr. Halo), DIB, DL, FLC, FLI, FLX, GDS, GIF, GL, HAM, ICO, IFF/ILBM, IMG, JFI, JPG (JFIF), LBM, MAC, MP2 & MPA (MPEG Audio), MPG, PCC, PCX, RAX, RFX, RLE, SC? (ColoRIX), TGA, TIFF and TXT (text). Exports: ANS (ANSI text), BBM, BMP, CUT/PAL (Dr. Halo), GDS, GIF, IFF/ILBM, IMG, JFI, JPG (JFIF), LBM, PCC, PCX, RAX, RFX, RLE, SC? (ColoRIX), TGA, and TIFF. Features: File viewing, batch conversions, easy thumbnail catalog creation with many options, slide shows, automatic configuration. Includes 5000+ lines of hypertext help and prints 98 page cross referenced manual. Supports HGC, CGA, EGA, S-EGA, VGA, SVGA, XGA, TIGA and VESA. Registered versions print to HP PCL & 100% compatible laser and inkjet printers. Comments: Used by CompuServe sysops to catalog over 40,000 images regularly. ASP approved shareware. No idea if it survives at all. If you can screen shot the headers of the posts it’s easier to find them in old usenet archives. The UTZOO stuff is an AMAZING resource. It’s been incredibly valuable looking for old stuff. Of course the real fun is in searching it. Feel free to wget the BZ2 files from: https://utzoo.superglobalmegacorp.com/ Just don’t spider into the /usenet directory as it’s all the files extracted and you’ll no doubt be pulling several million files… much easier to get the .tar.bz2 ‘s. From: Mary Ann Horton Gmail Sent: Monday, June 24, 2019 8:40 AM To: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org Subject: Re: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps I put the screenshots (literally - with my phone) here: http://maryannhorton.com/usenet/ Note the preposterous claim that the 4/15/81 map is the "Backbone" - I have no idea where that came from. The backbone was first proposed 2 years later. Clearly this is a full map of Usenet as of 4/15/81. Mary Ann On 6/23/19 4:57 PM, Grant Taylor via TUHS wrote: > >> I took some photos of the screen with the earliest maps (the ones >> that fit on one screen.) So it's an option to type things in, at >> least for the early ASCII ones. > > I'd be interested in seeing them. Do you have a place that you can > upload them to? > > > [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 8395 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 67+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps 2019-06-23 23:57 ` Grant Taylor via TUHS 2019-06-24 0:40 ` Mary Ann Horton Gmail @ 2019-06-24 1:57 ` Steve Nickolas 2019-06-24 2:09 ` pechter 1 sibling, 1 reply; 67+ messages in thread From: Steve Nickolas @ 2019-06-24 1:57 UTC (permalink / raw) To: tuhs There's always the option of Interlnk if one has PC DOS 5.02 or later, or MS-DOS 6. I think it has a way to send itself over serial to a machine with DOS 3.3 or later and I want to say the 6300 came with 3.3. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 67+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps 2019-06-24 1:57 ` Steve Nickolas @ 2019-06-24 2:09 ` pechter 0 siblings, 0 replies; 67+ messages in thread From: pechter @ 2019-06-24 2:09 UTC (permalink / raw) To: tuhs, Steve Nickolas [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 487 bytes --] The 6300 came with 2.11 and there was an upgrade to 3.2.3 IIRC. Bill Sent from MailDroid -----Original Message----- From: Steve Nickolas <usotsuki@buric.co> To: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org Sent: Sun, 23 Jun 2019 22:06 Subject: Re: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps There's always the option of Interlnk if one has PC DOS 5.02 or later, or MS-DOS 6. I think it has a way to send itself over serial to a machine with DOS 3.3 or later and I want to say the 6300 came with 3.3. [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 714 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 67+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps 2019-06-23 23:10 [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps Mary Ann Horton Gmail 2019-06-23 23:52 ` Arthur Krewat 2019-06-23 23:57 ` Grant Taylor via TUHS @ 2019-06-24 0:03 ` Theodore Ts'o 2019-06-24 0:19 ` Seth Morabito ` (3 subsequent siblings) 6 siblings, 0 replies; 67+ messages in thread From: Theodore Ts'o @ 2019-06-24 0:03 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Mary Ann Horton Gmail; +Cc: tuhs On Sun, Jun 23, 2019 at 04:10:22PM -0700, Mary Ann Horton Gmail wrote: > I'd like to copy these files off for posterity. They read on DOS just fine. > Is there a current best practice for copying off files? I would have guessed > I'd need a to use the serial port, but my old PC has DOS 2.11 (not much > serial copying software on it) and I don't have anything live with a serial > port anymore. And it might not help with the GRF file. Maybe this? http://www.deviceside.com/fc5025.html - Ted ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 67+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps 2019-06-23 23:10 [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps Mary Ann Horton Gmail ` (2 preceding siblings ...) 2019-06-24 0:03 ` Theodore Ts'o @ 2019-06-24 0:19 ` Seth Morabito 2019-06-24 0:33 ` Larry McVoy ` (2 subsequent siblings) 6 siblings, 0 replies; 67+ messages in thread From: Seth Morabito @ 2019-06-24 0:19 UTC (permalink / raw) To: tuhs On Sun, Jun 23, 2019, at 4:11 PM, Mary Ann Horton Gmail wrote: > I'd like to copy these files off for posterity. They read on DOS just > fine. Is there a current best practice for copying off files? I would > have guessed I'd need a to use the serial port, but my old PC has DOS > 2.11 (not much serial copying software on it) and I don't have anything > live with a serial port anymore. And it might not help with the GRF file. If you can't find a more expedient way, I'd be happy to help read off the files if you're willing to part with the disk for a few days. I have experience reading many old diskette formats, and a PC dedicated to the task running DOS 6.22 and Windows for Workgroups 3.11. I definitely agree it would be good to save these files for posterity. > Thanks, > > Mary Ann -Seth -- Seth Morabito Poulsbo, WA web@loomcom.com ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 67+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps 2019-06-23 23:10 [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps Mary Ann Horton Gmail ` (3 preceding siblings ...) 2019-06-24 0:19 ` Seth Morabito @ 2019-06-24 0:33 ` Larry McVoy 2019-06-24 1:58 ` Steve Nickolas 2019-06-25 3:54 ` Jonathan Gevaryahu 2019-07-09 16:28 ` Mary Ann Horton Gmail 6 siblings, 1 reply; 67+ messages in thread From: Larry McVoy @ 2019-06-24 0:33 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Mary Ann Horton Gmail; +Cc: tuhs I'd look around for an external floppy drive, plug it into a modern machine, download knoppix, boot that and it will read the disk. On Sun, Jun 23, 2019 at 04:10:22PM -0700, Mary Ann Horton Gmail wrote: > Hunting around through my ancient stuff today, I ran across a 5.25" floppy > drive labeled as having old Usenet maps. These may have historical interest. > > First off, I don't recognize the handwriting on the disk. It's not mine. > Does anyone recognize it? (pic attached) > > I dug out my AT&T 6300 (XT clone) from the garage and booted it up. The > floppy reads just fine. It has files with .MAP extension, which are ASCII > Usenet maps from 1980 to 1984, and some .BBM files which are ASCII Usenet > backbone maps up to 1987. > > There is also a file whose extension is .GRF from 1983 which claims to be a > graphical Usenet map.?? Does anyone have any idea what GRF is or what this > map might be? I recall Brian Reid having a plotter-based Usenet geographic > map in 84 or 85. > > I'd like to copy these files off for posterity. They read on DOS just fine. > Is there a current best practice for copying off files? I would have guessed > I'd need a to use the serial port, but my old PC has DOS 2.11 (not much > serial copying software on it) and I don't have anything live with a serial > port anymore. And it might not help with the GRF file. > > I took some photos of the screen with the earliest maps (the ones that fit > on one screen.) So it's an option to type things in, at least for the early > ASCII ones. > > Thanks, > > ?????? Mary Ann > > -- --- Larry McVoy lm at mcvoy.com http://www.mcvoy.com/lm ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 67+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps 2019-06-24 0:33 ` Larry McVoy @ 2019-06-24 1:58 ` Steve Nickolas 0 siblings, 0 replies; 67+ messages in thread From: Steve Nickolas @ 2019-06-24 1:58 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Larry McVoy; +Cc: tuhs On Sun, 23 Jun 2019, Larry McVoy wrote: > I'd look around for an external floppy drive, plug it into a modern machine, > download knoppix, boot that and it will read the disk. I dunno about you but I have had horrible luck with USB drives...to be fair, only one of them. -uso. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 67+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps 2019-06-23 23:10 [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps Mary Ann Horton Gmail ` (4 preceding siblings ...) 2019-06-24 0:33 ` Larry McVoy @ 2019-06-25 3:54 ` Jonathan Gevaryahu 2019-06-25 11:21 ` ckeck 2019-07-09 16:28 ` Mary Ann Horton Gmail 6 siblings, 1 reply; 67+ messages in thread From: Jonathan Gevaryahu @ 2019-06-25 3:54 UTC (permalink / raw) To: tuhs I'd use something like imagedisk or teledisk or anadisk for reading the diskette; this will also preserve the deleted/unused sectors, the boot sector and the disk filesystem/metadata, while just copying the files off will lose most of this data. On 6/23/2019 7:10 PM, Mary Ann Horton Gmail wrote: > Hunting around through my ancient stuff today, I ran across a 5.25" > floppy drive labeled as having old Usenet maps. These may have > historical interest. > > First off, I don't recognize the handwriting on the disk. It's not > mine. Does anyone recognize it? (pic attached) > > I dug out my AT&T 6300 (XT clone) from the garage and booted it up. > The floppy reads just fine. It has files with .MAP extension, which > are ASCII Usenet maps from 1980 to 1984, and some .BBM files which are > ASCII Usenet backbone maps up to 1987. > > There is also a file whose extension is .GRF from 1983 which claims to > be a graphical Usenet map. Does anyone have any idea what GRF is or > what this map might be? I recall Brian Reid having a plotter-based > Usenet geographic map in 84 or 85. > > I'd like to copy these files off for posterity. They read on DOS just > fine. Is there a current best practice for copying off files? I would > have guessed I'd need a to use the serial port, but my old PC has DOS > 2.11 (not much serial copying software on it) and I don't have > anything live with a serial port anymore. And it might not help with > the GRF file. > > I took some photos of the screen with the earliest maps (the ones that > fit on one screen.) So it's an option to type things in, at least for > the early ASCII ones. > > Thanks, > > Mary Ann > > -- Jonathan Gevaryahu AKA Lord Nightmare jgevaryahu@gmail.com jgevaryahu@hotmail.com ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 67+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps 2019-06-25 3:54 ` Jonathan Gevaryahu @ 2019-06-25 11:21 ` ckeck 0 siblings, 0 replies; 67+ messages in thread From: ckeck @ 2019-06-25 11:21 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Jonathan Gevaryahu; +Cc: tuhs Kermit used to exist for a great many systems, including DOS. A Pi might get that installed via apt-get, or compiled from scratch (might have to do that soon for some other project). As far as connectivity goes, places like Frys sell USB-RS232 Adapters and null-modem cables, means one can avoid messing with the Pi’s IO bits. Alternatively you could try uucp, but that requires more configuration. Von meinem iPhone gesendet > Am 24.06.2019 um 22:54 schrieb Jonathan Gevaryahu <jgevaryahu@hotmail.com>: > > I'd use something like imagedisk or teledisk or anadisk for reading the > diskette; this will also preserve the deleted/unused sectors, the boot > sector and the disk filesystem/metadata, while just copying the files > off will lose most of this data. > >> On 6/23/2019 7:10 PM, Mary Ann Horton Gmail wrote: >> Hunting around through my ancient stuff today, I ran across a 5.25" >> floppy drive labeled as having old Usenet maps. These may have >> historical interest. >> >> First off, I don't recognize the handwriting on the disk. It's not >> mine. Does anyone recognize it? (pic attached) >> >> I dug out my AT&T 6300 (XT clone) from the garage and booted it up. >> The floppy reads just fine. It has files with .MAP extension, which >> are ASCII Usenet maps from 1980 to 1984, and some .BBM files which are >> ASCII Usenet backbone maps up to 1987. >> >> There is also a file whose extension is .GRF from 1983 which claims to >> be a graphical Usenet map. Does anyone have any idea what GRF is or >> what this map might be? I recall Brian Reid having a plotter-based >> Usenet geographic map in 84 or 85. >> >> I'd like to copy these files off for posterity. They read on DOS just >> fine. Is there a current best practice for copying off files? I would >> have guessed I'd need a to use the serial port, but my old PC has DOS >> 2.11 (not much serial copying software on it) and I don't have >> anything live with a serial port anymore. And it might not help with >> the GRF file. >> >> I took some photos of the screen with the earliest maps (the ones that >> fit on one screen.) So it's an option to type things in, at least for >> the early ASCII ones. >> >> Thanks, >> >> Mary Ann >> >> > > -- > Jonathan Gevaryahu AKA Lord Nightmare > jgevaryahu@gmail.com > jgevaryahu@hotmail.com > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 67+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps 2019-06-23 23:10 [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps Mary Ann Horton Gmail ` (5 preceding siblings ...) 2019-06-25 3:54 ` Jonathan Gevaryahu @ 2019-07-09 16:28 ` Mary Ann Horton Gmail 2019-07-09 16:53 ` KatolaZ ` (2 more replies) 6 siblings, 3 replies; 67+ messages in thread From: Mary Ann Horton Gmail @ 2019-07-09 16:28 UTC (permalink / raw) To: tuhs I've succeeded in copying the files from floppy. Thanks to everyone for the great suggestions! I used a USB-to-serial adapter, combined with PuTTY and the usual serial tools (DB-9 to DB-25 adapter, gender changer, and null modem). I even dug out my AT&T PC 6300 MS DOS manual for details on writing BAT files (although the main script had a bad habit of exiting after the first file got copied). I wound up calling a 3 line script separately for each file to be copied over, and using PuTTY's scrolling history to save the files. I've collected these and other old Usenet maps here: http://www.stargatemuseum.org/maps/ I hope to display these (and hand out a few copies!) in Seattle this week. Does anyone have anything put together that can easily do the "leroy" thing described here: http://www.stargatemuseum.org/maps/032383.GRF.txt and produce the graphical map it contains? Mary Ann On 6/23/19 4:10 PM, Mary Ann Horton Gmail wrote: > Hunting around through my ancient stuff today, I ran across a 5.25" > floppy drive labeled as having old Usenet maps. These may have > historical interest. > > First off, I don't recognize the handwriting on the disk. It's not > mine. Does anyone recognize it? (pic attached) > > I dug out my AT&T 6300 (XT clone) from the garage and booted it up. > The floppy reads just fine. It has files with .MAP extension, which > are ASCII Usenet maps from 1980 to 1984, and some .BBM files which are > ASCII Usenet backbone maps up to 1987. > > There is also a file whose extension is .GRF from 1983 which claims to > be a graphical Usenet map. Does anyone have any idea what GRF is or > what this map might be? I recall Brian Reid having a plotter-based > Usenet geographic map in 84 or 85. > > I'd like to copy these files off for posterity. They read on DOS just > fine. Is there a current best practice for copying off files? I would > have guessed I'd need a to use the serial port, but my old PC has DOS > 2.11 (not much serial copying software on it) and I don't have > anything live with a serial port anymore. And it might not help with > the GRF file. > > I took some photos of the screen with the earliest maps (the ones that > fit on one screen.) So it's an option to type things in, at least for > the early ASCII ones. > > Thanks, > > Mary Ann > > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 67+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps 2019-07-09 16:28 ` Mary Ann Horton Gmail @ 2019-07-09 16:53 ` KatolaZ 2019-07-09 17:12 ` Henry Bent 2019-07-15 3:21 ` [TUHS] Historical " Mary Ann Horton Gmail 2 siblings, 0 replies; 67+ messages in thread From: KatolaZ @ 2019-07-09 16:53 UTC (permalink / raw) To: tuhs [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1555 bytes --] On Tue, Jul 09, 2019 at 09:28:04AM -0700, Mary Ann Horton Gmail wrote: > I've succeeded in copying the files from floppy. Thanks to everyone for the > great suggestions! > > I used a USB-to-serial adapter, combined with PuTTY and the usual serial > tools (DB-9 to DB-25 adapter, gender changer, and null modem). I even dug > out my AT&T PC 6300 MS DOS manual for details on writing BAT files (although > the main script had a bad habit of exiting after the first file got copied). > I wound up calling a 3 line script separately for each file to be copied > over, and using PuTTY's scrolling history to save the files. > > I've collected these and other old Usenet maps here: > > http://www.stargatemuseum.org/maps/ > > I hope to display these (and hand out a few copies!) in Seattle this week. > > Does anyone have anything put together that can easily do the "leroy" thing > described here: > > http://www.stargatemuseum.org/maps/032383.GRF.txt > > and produce the graphical map it contains? > Hi, if nobody has a "leroy" at hand, I could give it a go using a slightly more modern graph drawing stuff (starting from the same files). Just shout. HND Enzo Nicosia -- [ ~.,_ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ - Devuan -- Freaknet Medialab ] [ "+. katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it ] [ @) http://kalos.mine.nu --- Devuan GNU + Linux User ] [ @@) http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia -- GPG: 0B5F062F ] [ (@@@) Twitter: @KatolaZ - skype: katolaz -- github: KatolaZ ] [-- Attachment #2: signature.asc --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 195 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 67+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps 2019-07-09 16:28 ` Mary Ann Horton Gmail 2019-07-09 16:53 ` KatolaZ @ 2019-07-09 17:12 ` Henry Bent 2019-07-09 17:25 ` Seth Morabito 2019-07-09 17:33 ` Clem Cole 2019-07-15 3:21 ` [TUHS] Historical " Mary Ann Horton Gmail 2 siblings, 2 replies; 67+ messages in thread From: Henry Bent @ 2019-07-09 17:12 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Mary Ann Horton Gmail; +Cc: TUHS main list [-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 714 bytes --] On Tue, 9 Jul 2019 at 12:28, Mary Ann Horton Gmail <mah@mhorton.net> wrote: > Does anyone have anything put together that can easily do the "leroy" > thing described here: > > http://www.stargatemuseum.org/maps/032383.GRF.txt > > and produce the graphical map it contains? > > Mary Ann > I got as far as compiling leroy on 4.1C BSD and feeding the attached files through it. It ran without errors and produced a file to be fed to plot(1G). That file is attached; I can't figure out how to do anything useful with it. I ran it through the xterm Tek 4014 mode and just got garbage. I'm not really familiar with plot at all, so maybe someone else can easily produce readable output from this file. -Henry [-- Attachment #1.2: Type: text/html, Size: 1169 bytes --] [-- Attachment #2: leroy.out --] [-- Type: application/octet-stream, Size: 40901 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 67+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps 2019-07-09 17:12 ` Henry Bent @ 2019-07-09 17:25 ` Seth Morabito 2019-07-09 17:34 ` Henry Bent 2019-07-09 17:33 ` Clem Cole 1 sibling, 1 reply; 67+ messages in thread From: Seth Morabito @ 2019-07-09 17:25 UTC (permalink / raw) To: tuhs On Tue, Jul 9, 2019, at 10:13 AM, Henry Bent wrote: > On Tue, 9 Jul 2019 at 12:28, Mary Ann Horton Gmail <mah@mhorton.net> wrote: >> Does anyone have anything put together that can easily do the "leroy" >> thing described here: >> >> http://www.stargatemuseum.org/maps/032383.GRF.txt >> >> and produce the graphical map it contains? >> >> Mary Ann > > I got as far as compiling leroy on 4.1C BSD and feeding the attached files through it. I'm impressed that you were able to find leroy! I just did about fifteen minutes of searching online and was unable to find it. If you wouldn't mind, could you share it with us? I'd enjoy playing with it. -Seth -- Seth Morabito Poulsbo, WA web@loomcom.com ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 67+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps 2019-07-09 17:25 ` Seth Morabito @ 2019-07-09 17:34 ` Henry Bent 2019-07-09 19:19 ` Henry Bent 0 siblings, 1 reply; 67+ messages in thread From: Henry Bent @ 2019-07-09 17:34 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Seth Morabito; +Cc: TUHS main list [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1550 bytes --] On Tue, 9 Jul 2019 at 13:26, Seth Morabito <web@loomcom.com> wrote: > On Tue, Jul 9, 2019, at 10:13 AM, Henry Bent wrote: > > On Tue, 9 Jul 2019 at 12:28, Mary Ann Horton Gmail <mah@mhorton.net> > wrote: > >> Does anyone have anything put together that can easily do the "leroy" > >> thing described here: > >> > >> http://www.stargatemuseum.org/maps/032383.GRF.txt > >> > >> and produce the graphical map it contains? > >> > >> Mary Ann > > > > I got as far as compiling leroy on 4.1C BSD and feeding the attached > files through it. > > I'm impressed that you were able to find leroy! I just did about fifteen > minutes of searching online and was unable to find it. If you wouldn't > mind, could you share it with us? I'd enjoy playing with it. > It's on the 1981 Usenix tape, in the ucol directory: https://www.tuhs.org/Archive/Applications/Shoppa_Tapes/usenix_81.tar.gz It looks like leroy produces output for an "extended" form of plot; from the docs: -- The plot stream leroy emits is intended for, and must be directed to, an extended UNIX plot filter. These filters recognize a number of commands not included in the vanilla seventh edition filters, mostly dealing with the Hershey fonts. The extended plot filters are upward compatible with their predecessors and have been implemented in a fashion which makes tailoring new devices filters very straightfor- ward. The source code is available on request. Filters currently exist for the Tektronix 4014, the Versatec, the HP7221A, and the Qume. -- -Henry [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 2381 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 67+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps 2019-07-09 17:34 ` Henry Bent @ 2019-07-09 19:19 ` Henry Bent 2019-07-09 19:41 ` Richard Salz ` (2 more replies) 0 siblings, 3 replies; 67+ messages in thread From: Henry Bent @ 2019-07-09 19:19 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Seth Morabito; +Cc: TUHS main list [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2230 bytes --] On Tue, 9 Jul 2019 at 13:34, Henry Bent <henry.r.bent@gmail.com> wrote: > On Tue, 9 Jul 2019 at 13:26, Seth Morabito <web@loomcom.com> wrote: > >> On Tue, Jul 9, 2019, at 10:13 AM, Henry Bent wrote: >> > On Tue, 9 Jul 2019 at 12:28, Mary Ann Horton Gmail <mah@mhorton.net> >> wrote: >> >> Does anyone have anything put together that can easily do the "leroy" >> >> thing described here: >> >> >> >> http://www.stargatemuseum.org/maps/032383.GRF.txt >> >> >> >> and produce the graphical map it contains? >> >> >> >> Mary Ann >> > >> > I got as far as compiling leroy on 4.1C BSD and feeding the attached >> files through it. >> >> I'm impressed that you were able to find leroy! I just did about fifteen >> minutes of searching online and was unable to find it. If you wouldn't >> mind, could you share it with us? I'd enjoy playing with it. >> > > It's on the 1981 Usenix tape, in the ucol directory: > https://www.tuhs.org/Archive/Applications/Shoppa_Tapes/usenix_81.tar.gz > > It looks like leroy produces output for an "extended" form of plot; from > the docs: > -- > The plot stream leroy emits is intended for, and must > be directed to, an extended UNIX plot filter. These filters > recognize a number of commands not included in the vanilla > seventh edition filters, mostly dealing with the Hershey > fonts. The extended plot filters are upward compatible with > their predecessors and have been implemented in a fashion > which makes tailoring new devices filters very straightfor- > ward. The source code is available on request. Filters > currently exist for the Tektronix 4014, the Versatec, the > HP7221A, and the Qume. > -- > > -Henry > I realized that UCol was using a PDP-11, not a VAX, so I switched to running things under Ultrix 3.1. Using the extended plot libraries that UCol provided on the usenix tape, I was able to get Tektronix 4014 output which I was able to run through a modern tek2plot. Here are links to the raw plot file and an SVG, which I think is most useful for this sort of display. https://drive.google.com/file/d/19mdAYvjlAq7qp5KyJWQrgMwefOfq7XuC/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/1tX7Qclk-1V5BOrXWKP0bZouf6PoZ3KlK/view?usp=sharing -Henry [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 3657 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 67+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps 2019-07-09 19:19 ` Henry Bent @ 2019-07-09 19:41 ` Richard Salz 2019-07-09 20:09 ` Grant Taylor via TUHS 2019-07-09 20:54 ` Mary Ann Horton Gmail 2 siblings, 0 replies; 67+ messages in thread From: Richard Salz @ 2019-07-09 19:41 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Henry Bent; +Cc: TUHS main list [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 151 bytes --] I remember doing something similar for the "NNTP backbone," with the help of Brian Reid and his mapmaking postscript tools. I don't have any or data. [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 192 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 67+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps 2019-07-09 19:19 ` Henry Bent 2019-07-09 19:41 ` Richard Salz @ 2019-07-09 20:09 ` Grant Taylor via TUHS 2019-07-09 20:58 ` Henry Bent 2019-07-09 20:54 ` Mary Ann Horton Gmail 2 siblings, 1 reply; 67+ messages in thread From: Grant Taylor via TUHS @ 2019-07-09 20:09 UTC (permalink / raw) To: tuhs [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 844 bytes --] On 7/9/19 1:19 PM, Henry Bent wrote: > I realized that UCol was using a PDP-11, not a VAX, so I switched to > running things under Ultrix 3.1. Using the extended plot libraries that > UCol provided on the usenix tape, I was able to get Tektronix 4014 > output which I was able to run through a modern tek2plot. Here are > links to the raw plot file and an SVG, which I think is most useful for > this sort of display. > > https://drive.google.com/file/d/19mdAYvjlAq7qp5KyJWQrgMwefOfq7XuC/view?usp=sharing > https://drive.google.com/file/d/1tX7Qclk-1V5BOrXWKP0bZouf6PoZ3KlK/view?usp=sharing Impressive. Would you mind sharing the command sequence that you used? I'm trying to piece things together that I've never messed with and learn along the way. Please and thank you. -- Grant. . . . unix || die [-- Attachment #2: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature --] [-- Type: application/pkcs7-signature, Size: 4008 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 67+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps 2019-07-09 20:09 ` Grant Taylor via TUHS @ 2019-07-09 20:58 ` Henry Bent 0 siblings, 0 replies; 67+ messages in thread From: Henry Bent @ 2019-07-09 20:58 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Grant Taylor; +Cc: TUHS main list [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2663 bytes --] On Tue, 9 Jul 2019 at 16:10, Grant Taylor via TUHS <tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org> wrote: > On 7/9/19 1:19 PM, Henry Bent wrote: > > I realized that UCol was using a PDP-11, not a VAX, so I switched to > > running things under Ultrix 3.1. Using the extended plot libraries that > > UCol provided on the usenix tape, I was able to get Tektronix 4014 > > output which I was able to run through a modern tek2plot. Here are > > links to the raw plot file and an SVG, which I think is most useful for > > this sort of display. > > > > > https://drive.google.com/file/d/19mdAYvjlAq7qp5KyJWQrgMwefOfq7XuC/view?usp=sharing > > > https://drive.google.com/file/d/1tX7Qclk-1V5BOrXWKP0bZouf6PoZ3KlK/view?usp=sharing > > Impressive. > > Would you mind sharing the command sequence that you used? > > I'm trying to piece things together that I've never messed with and > learn along the way. > > Please and thank you. > My apologies, I am sometimes not as careful with documentation as I should be. I'm not up for transcribing every last command, but I can walk you through the basic idea. This assumes that you have extracted the necessary files from http://www.stargatemuseum.org/maps/032383.GRF.txt , which you have to do by hand because this is before shar. This was all done in SIMH, using a simulated PDP-11/70 running Ultrix 3.1, but I believe that what I did would work just as well on 2.xBSD. The 1981 Usenix tape ( https://www.tuhs.org/Archive/Applications/Shoppa_Tapes/usenix_81.tar.gz ) was attached to a virtual TK-50 drive (SIMH can now attach .tar files directly, with no conversion!) and extracted. The "ucol" directory contains the sources for leroy. The first step is to rebuild the plot library in leroy/plotsrc. Remove plib and *.o and run make, then back to the leroy directory, clean and make. The makefile installs /bin/leroy for you after building. Run "/bin/leroy < map.leroy" and it gives you leroy.out, which is in the special extended plot format that UCol developed. You need to convert this to Tek 4014, and there is a program for doing that in ucol/plot. But first you have to build the modified libt4014, which is in ucol/libplot. "make lilbt4014.a" will get you what you need there. Back to ucol/plot, edit the makefile to use your newly built libt4014 instead of the system's, clean out everything there and build tek. But wait! You still need the Hershey fonts in the right place, so move the contents of ucol/vroff to be /usr/src/cmd/vroff (or you could modify the source to put it wherever you want, I guess). Then finally you can pipe leroy.out through tek to get a 4014 file, which will be readable by a modern tek2plot. -Henry [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 3568 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 67+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps 2019-07-09 19:19 ` Henry Bent 2019-07-09 19:41 ` Richard Salz 2019-07-09 20:09 ` Grant Taylor via TUHS @ 2019-07-09 20:54 ` Mary Ann Horton Gmail 2019-07-09 21:30 ` Grant Taylor via TUHS 2019-07-09 21:37 ` Grant Taylor via TUHS 2 siblings, 2 replies; 67+ messages in thread From: Mary Ann Horton Gmail @ 2019-07-09 20:54 UTC (permalink / raw) To: tuhs [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2967 bytes --] Thank you, Henry! I was able to download the SVG and render it (mostly) legible for the map packet for the event tomorrow. Any chance you could do the same for this file? It looks smaller, but it's a couple weeks newer so it's possible it's somehow better. http://www.stargatemuseum.org/maps/philabs.26972.txt Thanks! Mary Ann On 7/9/19 12:19 PM, Henry Bent wrote: > On Tue, 9 Jul 2019 at 13:34, Henry Bent <henry.r.bent@gmail.com > <mailto:henry.r.bent@gmail.com>> wrote: > > On Tue, 9 Jul 2019 at 13:26, Seth Morabito <web@loomcom.com > <mailto:web@loomcom.com>> wrote: > > On Tue, Jul 9, 2019, at 10:13 AM, Henry Bent wrote: > > On Tue, 9 Jul 2019 at 12:28, Mary Ann Horton Gmail > <mah@mhorton.net <mailto:mah@mhorton.net>> wrote: > >> Does anyone have anything put together that can easily do > the "leroy" > >> thing described here: > >> > >> http://www.stargatemuseum.org/maps/032383.GRF.txt > >> > >> and produce the graphical map it contains? > >> > >> Mary Ann > > > > I got as far as compiling leroy on 4.1C BSD and feeding the > attached files through it. > > I'm impressed that you were able to find leroy! I just did > about fifteen minutes of searching online and was unable to > find it. If you wouldn't mind, could you share it with us? I'd > enjoy playing with it. > > > It's on the 1981 Usenix tape, in the ucol directory: > https://www.tuhs.org/Archive/Applications/Shoppa_Tapes/usenix_81.tar.gz > > It looks like leroy produces output for an "extended" form of > plot; from the docs: > -- > The plot stream leroy emits is intended for, and must > be directed to, an extended UNIX plot filter. These filters > recognize a number of commands not included in the vanilla > seventh edition filters, mostly dealing with the Hershey > fonts. The extended plot filters are upward compatible with > their predecessors and have been implemented in a fashion > which makes tailoring new devices filters very straightfor- > ward. The source code is available on request. Filters > currently exist for the Tektronix 4014, the Versatec, the > HP7221A, and the Qume. > -- > > -Henry > > I realized that UCol was using a PDP-11, not a VAX, so I switched to > running things under Ultrix 3.1. Using the extended plot libraries > that UCol provided on the usenix tape, I was able to get Tektronix > 4014 output which I was able to run through a modern tek2plot. Here > are links to the raw plot file and an SVG, which I think is most > useful for this sort of display. > > https://drive.google.com/file/d/19mdAYvjlAq7qp5KyJWQrgMwefOfq7XuC/view?usp=sharing > https://drive.google.com/file/d/1tX7Qclk-1V5BOrXWKP0bZouf6PoZ3KlK/view?usp=sharing > > -Henry > [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 6511 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 67+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps 2019-07-09 20:54 ` Mary Ann Horton Gmail @ 2019-07-09 21:30 ` Grant Taylor via TUHS 2019-07-09 21:35 ` Grant Taylor via TUHS 2019-07-09 21:37 ` Grant Taylor via TUHS 1 sibling, 1 reply; 67+ messages in thread From: Grant Taylor via TUHS @ 2019-07-09 21:30 UTC (permalink / raw) To: tuhs [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1334 bytes --] On 7/9/19 2:54 PM, Mary Ann Horton Gmail wrote: > Any chance you could do the same for this file? It looks smaller, but > it's a couple weeks newer so it's possible it's somehow better. > > http://www.stargatemuseum.org/maps/philabs.26972.txt I don't think that file is all of what's needed. I looked at it and saw the following: > …Also this news submission is broken > into two articles, with the graph(1G) compatible stuff separated from that > which is specific to leroy. > > The files and descriptions of their contents are as follows: > > First article: > --- This message > map.leroy command file for leroy to plot map > gmap.leroy command file for leroy to plot map with gnodes file > nodes leroy commands to draw circles at site locations > gnodes leroy commands to draw graphic characters at site > locations > sites leroy commands for labeling nodes with site names > > Second article: > usa.outline USA outline (graph(1G) format) > usa.states USA state boundaries (graph(1G) format) > net news connections between sites (graph(1G) format) As such, I think the usa.outline, usa.states, and net are missing. :-( I've not yet had a chance to look for articles in Usenet archives. -- Grant. . . . unix || die [-- Attachment #2: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature --] [-- Type: application/pkcs7-signature, Size: 4008 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 67+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps 2019-07-09 21:30 ` Grant Taylor via TUHS @ 2019-07-09 21:35 ` Grant Taylor via TUHS 0 siblings, 0 replies; 67+ messages in thread From: Grant Taylor via TUHS @ 2019-07-09 21:35 UTC (permalink / raw) To: tuhs [-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 282 bytes --] On 7/9/19 3:30 PM, Grant Taylor via TUHS wrote: > I've not yet had a chance to look for articles in Usenet archives. There's no time like the present. https://groups.google.com/forum/message/raw?msg=net.sources/cE_tkMNKZ_U/JoR7KGTJ_3YJ -- Grant. . . . unix || die [-- Attachment #1.2: usa.states --] [-- Type: text/plain, Size: 11107 bytes --] 2.365702 4.173272 2.354666 4.225278 2.314042 4.255296 2.312994 4.308004 2.272308 4.337952 2.281452 4.390995 2.320751 4.424070 2.341700 4.372401 2.372799 4.320927 2.413280 4.290846 2.454545 4.229559 2.415253 4.196319 2.375940 4.162915 2.365702 4.173272 " " 9.03614 5.998824 9.0441 5.936522 9.15194 5.725535 9.16827 5.674161 9.20616 5.614470 9.22255 5.563131 9.26707 5.535553 9.29789 5.538381 " " 8.98594 5.910089 8.99231 5.858008 9.00881 5.806939 9.00478 5.754053 8.97168 5.687859 8.98916 5.626195 8.97605 5.561687 8.98316 5.499041 9.00012 5.437207 8.99578 5.384164 9.01157 5.332603 9.02288 5.322970 " " 8.7045 5.800622 8.71929 5.760106 8.73643 5.698575 8.76242 5.648286 8.76951 5.585785 8.78525 5.534706 8.80227 5.472909 8.8573 5.435418 8.87417 5.373569 8.88981 5.322211 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4.029917 6.567927 4.025799 " " 6.482959 4.412758 6.205330 3.602037 " " 6.472186 4.361235 6.608008 4.474391 " " 6.472186 4.361235 6.593324 4.429585 " " 5.613284 5.007120 5.596527 5.122371 " " 5.502060 3.609040 6.205330 3.602037 " " 5.144769 2.092780 6.567927 4.025799 " " 5.142959 2.142861 5.144769 2.092780 " " 5.142959 2.142861 5.022821 2.050523 " " [-- Attachment #2: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature --] [-- Type: application/pkcs7-signature, Size: 4008 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 67+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps 2019-07-09 20:54 ` Mary Ann Horton Gmail 2019-07-09 21:30 ` Grant Taylor via TUHS @ 2019-07-09 21:37 ` Grant Taylor via TUHS 2019-07-09 21:46 ` Henry Bent 2019-07-09 22:01 ` Mary Ann Horton Gmail 1 sibling, 2 replies; 67+ messages in thread From: Grant Taylor via TUHS @ 2019-07-09 21:37 UTC (permalink / raw) To: tuhs [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 673 bytes --] On 7/9/19 2:54 PM, Mary Ann Horton Gmail wrote: > Any chance you could do the same for this file? It looks smaller, but > it's a couple weeks newer so it's possible it's somehow better. While searching for the 2nd article for the May, I found the following articles: Link - Usenet graphic map of North America, part 1 of 2 - https://groups.google.com/forum/message/raw?msg=net.sources/ZoPcfdMPIzQ/pEPpCV6m77QJ Link - Usenet graphic map of North America, part 2 of 2 - https://groups.google.com/forum/message/raw?msg=net.sources/cE_tkMNKZ_U/JoR7KGTJ_3YJ The dates of these articles are September 21, 1983. -- Grant. . . . unix || die [-- Attachment #2: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature --] [-- Type: application/pkcs7-signature, Size: 4008 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 67+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps 2019-07-09 21:37 ` Grant Taylor via TUHS @ 2019-07-09 21:46 ` Henry Bent 2019-07-09 22:02 ` Henry Bent 2019-07-09 22:01 ` Mary Ann Horton Gmail 1 sibling, 1 reply; 67+ messages in thread From: Henry Bent @ 2019-07-09 21:46 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Grant Taylor; +Cc: TUHS main list [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1009 bytes --] On Tue, 9 Jul 2019 at 17:39, Grant Taylor via TUHS <tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org> wrote: > On 7/9/19 2:54 PM, Mary Ann Horton Gmail wrote: > > Any chance you could do the same for this file? It looks smaller, but > > it's a couple weeks newer so it's possible it's somehow better. > > While searching for the 2nd article for the May, I found the following > articles: > > Link - Usenet graphic map of North America, part 1 of 2 > - > > https://groups.google.com/forum/message/raw?msg=net.sources/ZoPcfdMPIzQ/pEPpCV6m77QJ > > Link - Usenet graphic map of North America, part 2 of 2 > - > > https://groups.google.com/forum/message/raw?msg=net.sources/cE_tkMNKZ_U/JoR7KGTJ_3YJ > > The dates of these articles are September 21, 1983. > > > > -- > Grant. . . . > unix || die > > Thanks Grant, Mary Ann found what I needed and I'm working away. Somehow in going back over what I used to build a working setup I managed to break my working setup, so I'm trying to fix that to get the next set of files output. -Henry [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 1722 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 67+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps 2019-07-09 21:46 ` Henry Bent @ 2019-07-09 22:02 ` Henry Bent 2019-07-09 23:23 ` Mary Ann Horton Gmail 0 siblings, 1 reply; 67+ messages in thread From: Henry Bent @ 2019-07-09 22:02 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Grant Taylor; +Cc: TUHS main list [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1882 bytes --] On Tue, 9 Jul 2019 at 17:46, Henry Bent <henry.r.bent@gmail.com> wrote: > On Tue, 9 Jul 2019 at 17:39, Grant Taylor via TUHS <tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org> > wrote: > >> On 7/9/19 2:54 PM, Mary Ann Horton Gmail wrote: >> > Any chance you could do the same for this file? It looks smaller, but >> > it's a couple weeks newer so it's possible it's somehow better. >> >> While searching for the 2nd article for the May, I found the following >> articles: >> >> Link - Usenet graphic map of North America, part 1 of 2 >> - >> >> https://groups.google.com/forum/message/raw?msg=net.sources/ZoPcfdMPIzQ/pEPpCV6m77QJ >> >> Link - Usenet graphic map of North America, part 2 of 2 >> - >> >> https://groups.google.com/forum/message/raw?msg=net.sources/cE_tkMNKZ_U/JoR7KGTJ_3YJ >> >> The dates of these articles are September 21, 1983. >> >> >> >> -- >> Grant. . . . >> unix || die >> >> > Thanks Grant, Mary Ann found what I needed and I'm working away. Somehow > in going back over what I used to build a working setup I managed to break > my working setup, so I'm trying to fix that to get the next set of files > output. > > -Henry > > OK, here's the second set of Usenet maps, again in raw plot and SVG form. The only difference with the "g" maps, produced with the gmap.leroy script, seems to be the addition of a few graphical icons. https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Y6PU1NJv8mdVr1SQsQUDnUjNlq6N2bvv/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/1JpbMTzhmJD-amLCpYOWMPQCHyCsrC_ck/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/1WRhiPTj1URUGNuxCh-8ERuK0FnQ_i1tk/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/1plhCfaP1Uyxu5wAgtQEyPEA88r8JLHIW/view?usp=sharing I'm pretty sure this is how they would have looked originally, cluttered as they are. The nice thing about them being in a vector format, though, is that you could blow them up to poster size if you wanted to. -Henry [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 3351 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 67+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps 2019-07-09 22:02 ` Henry Bent @ 2019-07-09 23:23 ` Mary Ann Horton Gmail 2019-07-10 0:06 ` Dan Cross 0 siblings, 1 reply; 67+ messages in thread From: Mary Ann Horton Gmail @ 2019-07-09 23:23 UTC (permalink / raw) To: tuhs [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2665 bytes --] Thanks, Henry, you found my mistake. I've corrected the links to the Sept 1983 maps and verified that the date in the map is September. Would you please rerun that one? :) The extra icons in the legend are nice! Yes, I agree doing this on a plotter would be better. I recall Brian Reid doing just that as a product demo of an HP plotter at one Usenix. I had such a poster, I was going to bring it this week but I can't find it. Now I know where he got his data... Thanks, Mary Ann On 7/9/19 3:02 PM, Henry Bent wrote: > On Tue, 9 Jul 2019 at 17:46, Henry Bent <henry.r.bent@gmail.com > <mailto:henry.r.bent@gmail.com>> wrote: > > On Tue, 9 Jul 2019 at 17:39, Grant Taylor via TUHS > <tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org <mailto:tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org>> wrote: > > On 7/9/19 2:54 PM, Mary Ann Horton Gmail wrote: > > Any chance you could do the same for this file? It looks > smaller, but > > it's a couple weeks newer so it's possible it's somehow better. > > While searching for the 2nd article for the May, I found the > following > articles: > > Link - Usenet graphic map of North America, part 1 of 2 > - > https://groups.google.com/forum/message/raw?msg=net.sources/ZoPcfdMPIzQ/pEPpCV6m77QJ > > Link - Usenet graphic map of North America, part 2 of 2 > - > https://groups.google.com/forum/message/raw?msg=net.sources/cE_tkMNKZ_U/JoR7KGTJ_3YJ > > The dates of these articles are September 21, 1983. > > > > -- > Grant. . . . > unix || die > > > Thanks Grant, Mary Ann found what I needed and I'm working away. > Somehow in going back over what I used to build a working setup I > managed to break my working setup, so I'm trying to fix that to > get the next set of files output. > > -Henry > > > OK, here's the second set of Usenet maps, again in raw plot and SVG > form. The only difference with the "g" maps, produced with the > gmap.leroy script, seems to be the addition of a few graphical icons. > > https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Y6PU1NJv8mdVr1SQsQUDnUjNlq6N2bvv/view?usp=sharing > https://drive.google.com/file/d/1JpbMTzhmJD-amLCpYOWMPQCHyCsrC_ck/view?usp=sharing > https://drive.google.com/file/d/1WRhiPTj1URUGNuxCh-8ERuK0FnQ_i1tk/view?usp=sharing > https://drive.google.com/file/d/1plhCfaP1Uyxu5wAgtQEyPEA88r8JLHIW/view?usp=sharing > > I'm pretty sure this is how they would have looked originally, > cluttered as they are. The nice thing about them being in a vector > format, though, is that you could blow them up to poster size if you > wanted to. > > -Henry [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 6047 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 67+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps 2019-07-09 23:23 ` Mary Ann Horton Gmail @ 2019-07-10 0:06 ` Dan Cross 2019-07-10 0:26 ` Grant Taylor via TUHS 2019-07-10 0:28 ` Mary Ann Horton Gmail 0 siblings, 2 replies; 67+ messages in thread From: Dan Cross @ 2019-07-10 0:06 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Mary Ann Horton Gmail; +Cc: TUHS main list [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2694 bytes --] Amazingly, I got `leroy` to build on a modern(ish) system. Mary Ann, are you in Renton right now? On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 7:23 PM Mary Ann Horton Gmail <mah@mhorton.net> wrote: > Thanks, Henry, you found my mistake. > > I've corrected the links to the Sept 1983 maps and verified that the date > in the map is September. Would you please rerun that one? :) > > The extra icons in the legend are nice! > > Yes, I agree doing this on a plotter would be better. I recall Brian Reid > doing just that as a product demo of an HP plotter at one Usenix. I had > such a poster, I was going to bring it this week but I can't find it. Now I > know where he got his data... > > Thanks, > > Mary Ann > On 7/9/19 3:02 PM, Henry Bent wrote: > > On Tue, 9 Jul 2019 at 17:46, Henry Bent <henry.r.bent@gmail.com> wrote: > >> On Tue, 9 Jul 2019 at 17:39, Grant Taylor via TUHS <tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org> >> wrote: >> >>> On 7/9/19 2:54 PM, Mary Ann Horton Gmail wrote: >>> > Any chance you could do the same for this file? It looks smaller, but >>> > it's a couple weeks newer so it's possible it's somehow better. >>> >>> While searching for the 2nd article for the May, I found the following >>> articles: >>> >>> Link - Usenet graphic map of North America, part 1 of 2 >>> - >>> >>> https://groups.google.com/forum/message/raw?msg=net.sources/ZoPcfdMPIzQ/pEPpCV6m77QJ >>> >>> Link - Usenet graphic map of North America, part 2 of 2 >>> - >>> >>> https://groups.google.com/forum/message/raw?msg=net.sources/cE_tkMNKZ_U/JoR7KGTJ_3YJ >>> >>> The dates of these articles are September 21, 1983. >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Grant. . . . >>> unix || die >>> >>> >> Thanks Grant, Mary Ann found what I needed and I'm working away. Somehow >> in going back over what I used to build a working setup I managed to break >> my working setup, so I'm trying to fix that to get the next set of files >> output. >> >> -Henry >> >> > OK, here's the second set of Usenet maps, again in raw plot and SVG form. > The only difference with the "g" maps, produced with the gmap.leroy script, > seems to be the addition of a few graphical icons. > > > https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Y6PU1NJv8mdVr1SQsQUDnUjNlq6N2bvv/view?usp=sharing > > https://drive.google.com/file/d/1JpbMTzhmJD-amLCpYOWMPQCHyCsrC_ck/view?usp=sharing > > https://drive.google.com/file/d/1WRhiPTj1URUGNuxCh-8ERuK0FnQ_i1tk/view?usp=sharing > > https://drive.google.com/file/d/1plhCfaP1Uyxu5wAgtQEyPEA88r8JLHIW/view?usp=sharing > > I'm pretty sure this is how they would have looked originally, cluttered > as they are. The nice thing about them being in a vector format, though, > is that you could blow them up to poster size if you wanted to. > > -Henry > > [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 6100 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 67+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps 2019-07-10 0:06 ` Dan Cross @ 2019-07-10 0:26 ` Grant Taylor via TUHS 2019-07-10 0:38 ` Dan Cross 2019-07-10 0:28 ` Mary Ann Horton Gmail 1 sibling, 1 reply; 67+ messages in thread From: Grant Taylor via TUHS @ 2019-07-10 0:26 UTC (permalink / raw) To: tuhs [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 229 bytes --] On 7/9/19 6:06 PM, Dan Cross wrote: > Amazingly, I got `leroy` to build on a modern(ish) system. Please elaborate on what a modern(ish) system means. OS & version, architecture, etc. -- Grant. . . . unix || die [-- Attachment #2: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature --] [-- Type: application/pkcs7-signature, Size: 4008 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 67+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps 2019-07-10 0:26 ` Grant Taylor via TUHS @ 2019-07-10 0:38 ` Dan Cross 2019-07-10 0:49 ` Larry McVoy 0 siblings, 1 reply; 67+ messages in thread From: Dan Cross @ 2019-07-10 0:38 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Grant Taylor; +Cc: TUHS main list [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 430 bytes --] On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 8:26 PM Grant Taylor via TUHS <tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org> wrote: > On 7/9/19 6:06 PM, Dan Cross wrote: > > Amazingly, I got `leroy` to build on a modern(ish) system. > Please elaborate on what a modern(ish) system means. OS & version, > architecture, etc. > Sure; OpenBSD 6.5 on x86_64. I got a lot of warnings, but it produced an executable that didn't immediately dump core when I ran it. - Dan C. [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 817 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 67+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps 2019-07-10 0:38 ` Dan Cross @ 2019-07-10 0:49 ` Larry McVoy 2019-07-10 0:57 ` Clem Cole 2019-07-10 1:02 ` [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps Arthur Krewat 0 siblings, 2 replies; 67+ messages in thread From: Larry McVoy @ 2019-07-10 0:49 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Dan Cross; +Cc: TUHS main list, Grant Taylor On Tue, Jul 09, 2019 at 08:38:05PM -0400, Dan Cross wrote: > On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 8:26 PM Grant Taylor via TUHS <tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org> > wrote: > > > On 7/9/19 6:06 PM, Dan Cross wrote: > > > Amazingly, I got `leroy` to build on a modern(ish) system. > > Please elaborate on what a modern(ish) system means. OS & version, > > architecture, etc. > > > > Sure; OpenBSD 6.5 on x86_64. I got a lot of warnings, but it produced an > executable that didn't immediately dump core when I ran it. Old programs didn't ask a lot of the OS so it isn't surprising that it worked. It's cool when it does though, reminds me of bringing up X11 back in the day. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 67+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps 2019-07-10 0:49 ` Larry McVoy @ 2019-07-10 0:57 ` Clem Cole 2019-07-10 1:26 ` [TUHS] V0 B Compiler Warren Toomey 2019-07-10 1:02 ` [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps Arthur Krewat 1 sibling, 1 reply; 67+ messages in thread From: Clem Cole @ 2019-07-10 0:57 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Larry McVoy; +Cc: TUHS main list, Grant Taylor [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 808 bytes --] On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 8:49 PM Larry McVoy <lm@mcvoy.com> wrote: > Old programs didn't ask a lot of the OS so it isn't surprising that it > worked. I'd modify that to say, that old programs often ask less of *the system* - although they tend to have assumptions about the environment (like the target processor) embedded/implied in the code. I think the single enhancement to C was adding strong typing and explicit typing in the function calls. By adding those two things to old code, I have brought them forward. Similarly, I have taken modern code and my careful use of the preprocessor be able to get it run on as far back as the 5th edition without real hacks. And with what Warren and Phil did we even got pseudo C to compile back on V0. > It's cool when it does though, Indeed - very cool. [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 1950 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 67+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] V0 B Compiler 2019-07-10 0:57 ` Clem Cole @ 2019-07-10 1:26 ` Warren Toomey 2019-07-10 1:29 ` Clem Cole 0 siblings, 1 reply; 67+ messages in thread From: Warren Toomey @ 2019-07-10 1:26 UTC (permalink / raw) To: tuhs On Tue, Jul 09, 2019 at 08:57:19PM -0400, Clem Cole wrote: > Similarly, I have taken modern code and my careful use of the > preprocessor be able to get it run on as far back as the 5th edition > without real hacks. And with what Warren and Phil did we even got > pseudo C to compile back on V0. Ah, I need to give credit where it's due here. Phil and I brought the V0 system back. Robert Swierczek brought the B compiler back. Cheers, Warren ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 67+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] V0 B Compiler 2019-07-10 1:26 ` [TUHS] V0 B Compiler Warren Toomey @ 2019-07-10 1:29 ` Clem Cole 2019-07-10 1:32 ` [TUHS] Plot 10 Sources Clem Cole 0 siblings, 1 reply; 67+ messages in thread From: Clem Cole @ 2019-07-10 1:29 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Warren Toomey; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 590 bytes --] Thanks Robert, sorry for the error ;-) On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 9:27 PM Warren Toomey <wkt@tuhs.org> wrote: > On Tue, Jul 09, 2019 at 08:57:19PM -0400, Clem Cole wrote: > > Similarly, I have taken modern code and my careful use of the > > preprocessor be able to get it run on as far back as the 5th edition > > without real hacks. And with what Warren and Phil did we even got > > pseudo C to compile back on V0. > > Ah, I need to give credit where it's due here. Phil and I brought the V0 > system back. Robert Swierczek brought the B compiler back. > > Cheers, Warren > [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 1000 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 67+ messages in thread
* [TUHS] Plot 10 Sources 2019-07-10 1:29 ` Clem Cole @ 2019-07-10 1:32 ` Clem Cole 2019-07-10 2:51 ` Charles Anthony 2019-07-10 12:51 ` Nelson H. F. Beebe 0 siblings, 2 replies; 67+ messages in thread From: Clem Cole @ 2019-07-10 1:32 UTC (permalink / raw) To: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 205 bytes --] Mark's looking at plot got me thinking, does anyone know if any version of the Tektronix Plot 10 sources has survived? I have googled around and found a few manuals, but never the (Fortran) code itself. [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 313 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 67+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] Plot 10 Sources 2019-07-10 1:32 ` [TUHS] Plot 10 Sources Clem Cole @ 2019-07-10 2:51 ` Charles Anthony 2019-07-10 3:00 ` Charles Anthony 2019-07-10 3:01 ` Clem Cole 2019-07-10 12:51 ` Nelson H. F. Beebe 1 sibling, 2 replies; 67+ messages in thread From: Charles Anthony @ 2019-07-10 2:51 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Clem Cole; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 415 bytes --] On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 6:33 PM Clem Cole <clemc@ccc.com> wrote: > Mark's looking at plot got me thinking, does anyone know if any version of > the Tektronix Plot 10 sources has survived? I have googled around and > found a few manuals, but never the (Fortran) code itself. > I have a copy, but I don't remember where I found it... https://drive.google.com/open?id=1cpZvaNXa5v_0wrZfvJ-apWRdUqhvoNg7 -- Charles [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 970 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 67+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] Plot 10 Sources 2019-07-10 2:51 ` Charles Anthony @ 2019-07-10 3:00 ` Charles Anthony 2019-07-10 3:01 ` Clem Cole 1 sibling, 0 replies; 67+ messages in thread From: Charles Anthony @ 2019-07-10 3:00 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Clem Cole; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 603 bytes --] On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 7:51 PM Charles Anthony <charles.unix.pro@gmail.com> wrote: > > > On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 6:33 PM Clem Cole <clemc@ccc.com> wrote: > >> Mark's looking at plot got me thinking, does anyone know if any version >> of the Tektronix Plot 10 sources has survived? I have googled around and >> found a few manuals, but never the (Fortran) code itself. >> > > I have a copy, but I don't remember where I found it... > > https://drive.google.com/open?id=1cpZvaNXa5v_0wrZfvJ-apWRdUqhvoNg7 > > I found it at bitsavers: http://www.bitsavers.org/bits/Tektronix/PLOT_10/TCS_3.0/ -- Charles [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 1619 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 67+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] Plot 10 Sources 2019-07-10 2:51 ` Charles Anthony 2019-07-10 3:00 ` Charles Anthony @ 2019-07-10 3:01 ` Clem Cole 1 sibling, 0 replies; 67+ messages in thread From: Clem Cole @ 2019-07-10 3:01 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Charles Anthony; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 969 bytes --] Cool many thanks. FYI: it's a great start. It just the Terminal Control System part, there was about 5 or 6 subsystems, IIRC. That's a fairly early version (1974) also, since its Fortran-IV. Later versions in the late 70's/early 80s were in MORTRAN, BTW. I remember an internal argument of the folks in the terminal group about if Plot 10's GKS system should be done in C - but FORTRAN still rules the day so, MORTRAN was the compromise. On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 10:51 PM Charles Anthony <charles.unix.pro@gmail.com> wrote: > > > On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 6:33 PM Clem Cole <clemc@ccc.com> wrote: > >> Mark's looking at plot got me thinking, does anyone know if any version >> of the Tektronix Plot 10 sources has survived? I have googled around and >> found a few manuals, but never the (Fortran) code itself. >> > > I have a copy, but I don't remember where I found it... > > https://drive.google.com/open?id=1cpZvaNXa5v_0wrZfvJ-apWRdUqhvoNg7 > > -- Charles > > [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 2086 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 67+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] Plot 10 Sources 2019-07-10 1:32 ` [TUHS] Plot 10 Sources Clem Cole 2019-07-10 2:51 ` Charles Anthony @ 2019-07-10 12:51 ` Nelson H. F. Beebe 2019-07-10 14:34 ` Clem cole 1 sibling, 1 reply; 67+ messages in thread From: Nelson H. F. Beebe @ 2019-07-10 12:51 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Clem Cole; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society Clem Cole <clemc@ccc.com> asks on Tue, 9 Jul 2019 21:32:31 -0400: >> does anyone know if any version of the Tektronix Plot 10 sources has survived? In our PDP-10 TOPS-20 archive of what was then utah-science, later science.utah.edu (a domain now owned by our Dean's office), I find these files: % ls -log total 3768 -rw-rw-r-- 1 145899 May 16 1985 agii.for -rw-rw-r-- 1 245190 May 16 1985 ezgr27.for -rw-rw-r-- 1 2132822 May 16 1985 igl.for -rw-rw-r-- 1 289730 May 16 1985 p4663.for -rw-rw-r-- 1 129276 May 16 1985 p4663.ver -rw-rw-r-- 1 149038 May 16 1985 ploter.for -rw-rw-r-- 1 210033 May 16 1985 plt10.for -rw-rw-r-- 1 470 May 16 1985 plt10t.for % wc -l * 1815 agii.for 7251 ezgr27.for 26011 igl.for 3577 p4663.for 1596 p4663.ver 1845 ploter.for 2763 plt10.for 27 plt10t.for 44885 total % head -16 agii.for C***********************************************************************00000010 C* *00000020 C* 4010A02 PLOT 10 ADVANCED GRAPHING II *00000030 C* LEVEL 1 *00000040 C* *00000050 C* 062-2948-01 STD. SOURCE CARD DECK, 026 PUNCH *00000060 C* 062-2949-01 STD. SOURCE LISTING *00000070 C* *00000080 C* C COPYRIGHT 1976 TEKTRONIX, INC. *00000090 C* ALL RIGHTS RESERVED *00000100 C* *00000110 C* TEKTRONIX, INC. *00000120 C* P. O. BOX 500 *00000130 C* BEAVERTON, OREGON 97077 *00000140 C* *00000150 C***********************************************************************00000160 The Bitsavers code at http://www.bitsavers.org/bits/Tektronix/PLOT_10/TCS_3.0/plot10.ftn has a 1974 copyright date, so our code is two years newer. The question is, what is the copyright status of this code? Has Tektronix (https://www.tek.com/) made any statements about releasing it to the public? I no longer remember the conditions under which we got the PLOT 10 code, and any licensing paperwork has long since gone to recycling. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- - Nelson H. F. Beebe Tel: +1 801 581 5254 - - University of Utah FAX: +1 801 581 4148 - - Department of Mathematics, 110 LCB Internet e-mail: beebe@math.utah.edu - - 155 S 1400 E RM 233 beebe@acm.org beebe@computer.org - - Salt Lake City, UT 84112-0090, USA URL: http://www.math.utah.edu/~beebe/ - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 67+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] Plot 10 Sources 2019-07-10 12:51 ` Nelson H. F. Beebe @ 2019-07-10 14:34 ` Clem cole 0 siblings, 0 replies; 67+ messages in thread From: Clem cole @ 2019-07-10 14:34 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Nelson H. F. Beebe; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society Nelson. Good question. The status is unknown last I knew. I’ve personally lost track of anyone at Tek that might have able to help. Also your version seems to be pure FORTRAN-IV not the mortran sources. Part of my question is I’m not sure if they shipped the pre or post processed version. Somebody like Ed Post (of the old “Real Programmers don’t write Pascal, they use FORTRAN”) might remember. Sent from my PDP-7 Running UNIX V0 expect things to be almost but not quite. > On Jul 10, 2019, at 5:51 AM, Nelson H. F. Beebe <beebe@math.utah.edu> wrote: > > Clem Cole <clemc@ccc.com> asks on Tue, 9 Jul 2019 21:32:31 -0400: > >>> does anyone know if any version of the Tektronix Plot 10 sources has survived? > > In our PDP-10 TOPS-20 archive of what was then utah-science, later > science.utah.edu (a domain now owned by our Dean's office), I find > these files: > > % ls -log > total 3768 > -rw-rw-r-- 1 145899 May 16 1985 agii.for > -rw-rw-r-- 1 245190 May 16 1985 ezgr27.for > -rw-rw-r-- 1 2132822 May 16 1985 igl.for > -rw-rw-r-- 1 289730 May 16 1985 p4663.for > -rw-rw-r-- 1 129276 May 16 1985 p4663.ver > -rw-rw-r-- 1 149038 May 16 1985 ploter.for > -rw-rw-r-- 1 210033 May 16 1985 plt10.for > -rw-rw-r-- 1 470 May 16 1985 plt10t.for > > % wc -l * > 1815 agii.for > 7251 ezgr27.for > 26011 igl.for > 3577 p4663.for > 1596 p4663.ver > 1845 ploter.for > 2763 plt10.for > 27 plt10t.for > 44885 total > > % head -16 agii.for > C***********************************************************************00000010 > C* *00000020 > C* 4010A02 PLOT 10 ADVANCED GRAPHING II *00000030 > C* LEVEL 1 *00000040 > C* *00000050 > C* 062-2948-01 STD. SOURCE CARD DECK, 026 PUNCH *00000060 > C* 062-2949-01 STD. SOURCE LISTING *00000070 > C* *00000080 > C* C COPYRIGHT 1976 TEKTRONIX, INC. *00000090 > C* ALL RIGHTS RESERVED *00000100 > C* *00000110 > C* TEKTRONIX, INC. *00000120 > C* P. O. BOX 500 *00000130 > C* BEAVERTON, OREGON 97077 *00000140 > C* *00000150 > C***********************************************************************00000160 > > The Bitsavers code at > > http://www.bitsavers.org/bits/Tektronix/PLOT_10/TCS_3.0/plot10.ftn > > has a 1974 copyright date, so our code is two years newer. > > The question is, what is the copyright status of this code? Has > Tektronix (https://www.tek.com/) made any statements about releasing > it to the public? > > I no longer remember the conditions under which we got the PLOT 10 > code, and any licensing paperwork has long since gone to recycling. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > - Nelson H. F. Beebe Tel: +1 801 581 5254 - > - University of Utah FAX: +1 801 581 4148 - > - Department of Mathematics, 110 LCB Internet e-mail: beebe@math.utah.edu - > - 155 S 1400 E RM 233 beebe@acm.org beebe@computer.org - > - Salt Lake City, UT 84112-0090, USA URL: http://www.math.utah.edu/~beebe/ - > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 67+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps 2019-07-10 0:49 ` Larry McVoy 2019-07-10 0:57 ` Clem Cole @ 2019-07-10 1:02 ` Arthur Krewat 2019-07-10 1:19 ` Larry McVoy 1 sibling, 1 reply; 67+ messages in thread From: Arthur Krewat @ 2019-07-10 1:02 UTC (permalink / raw) To: tuhs On 7/9/2019 8:49 PM, Larry McVoy wrote: > reminds me of bringing up X11 > back in the day. Oh boy, the output from that make, hoo-weee.... ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 67+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps 2019-07-10 1:02 ` [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps Arthur Krewat @ 2019-07-10 1:19 ` Larry McVoy 2019-07-10 1:34 ` Dave Horsfall 0 siblings, 1 reply; 67+ messages in thread From: Larry McVoy @ 2019-07-10 1:19 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Arthur Krewat; +Cc: tuhs On Tue, Jul 09, 2019 at 09:02:50PM -0400, Arthur Krewat wrote: > On 7/9/2019 8:49 PM, Larry McVoy wrote: > >reminds me of bringing up X11 > >back in the day. > Oh boy, the output from that make, hoo-weee.... Indeed. Bringing up X11 when I knew nothing about graphics drivers was, um, interesting. It did teach me to just try #ifdef-ing out the code that didn't work, sort of a prune the tree approach, that helped me later in life. Things don't have to be perfect, a working window system that fails in some corner case I don't hit is better than nothing by a long shot. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 67+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps 2019-07-10 1:19 ` Larry McVoy @ 2019-07-10 1:34 ` Dave Horsfall 0 siblings, 0 replies; 67+ messages in thread From: Dave Horsfall @ 2019-07-10 1:34 UTC (permalink / raw) To: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society On Tue, 9 Jul 2019, Larry McVoy wrote: > Indeed. Bringing up X11 when I knew nothing about graphics drivers was, > um, interesting. It did teach me to just try #ifdef-ing out the code > that didn't work, sort of a prune the tree approach, that helped me > later in life. Things don't have to be perfect, a working window system > that fails in some corner case I don't hit is better than nothing by a > long shot. Back in the 80s, our idiot of a manager just dumped an Xterm on us, expecting us to get it to work ASAP for a demo.. Oh the fun we had, seeing as our knowledge of "X" at the time was confined to knowing how to spell it... I even told him that, and he wasn't amused :-) -- Dave ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 67+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps 2019-07-10 0:06 ` Dan Cross 2019-07-10 0:26 ` Grant Taylor via TUHS @ 2019-07-10 0:28 ` Mary Ann Horton Gmail 1 sibling, 0 replies; 67+ messages in thread From: Mary Ann Horton Gmail @ 2019-07-10 0:28 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Dan Cross; +Cc: TUHS main list [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 3340 bytes --] Hi, Dan, My plane gets into SeaTac at 11 AM Wed. I'm still at home and can still print these tonight. Thanks, Mary Ann On 7/9/19 5:06 PM, Dan Cross wrote: > Amazingly, I got `leroy` to build on a modern(ish) system. Mary Ann, > are you in Renton right now? > > On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 7:23 PM Mary Ann Horton Gmail <mah@mhorton.net > <mailto:mah@mhorton.net>> wrote: > > Thanks, Henry, you found my mistake. > > I've corrected the links to the Sept 1983 maps and verified that > the date in the map is September. Would you please rerun that one? :) > > The extra icons in the legend are nice! > > Yes, I agree doing this on a plotter would be better. I recall > Brian Reid doing just that as a product demo of an HP plotter at > one Usenix. I had such a poster, I was going to bring it this week > but I can't find it. Now I know where he got his data... > > Thanks, > > Mary Ann > > On 7/9/19 3:02 PM, Henry Bent wrote: >> On Tue, 9 Jul 2019 at 17:46, Henry Bent <henry.r.bent@gmail.com >> <mailto:henry.r.bent@gmail.com>> wrote: >> >> On Tue, 9 Jul 2019 at 17:39, Grant Taylor via TUHS >> <tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org <mailto:tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org>> wrote: >> >> On 7/9/19 2:54 PM, Mary Ann Horton Gmail wrote: >> > Any chance you could do the same for this file? It >> looks smaller, but >> > it's a couple weeks newer so it's possible it's somehow >> better. >> >> While searching for the 2nd article for the May, I found >> the following >> articles: >> >> Link - Usenet graphic map of North America, part 1 of 2 >> - >> https://groups.google.com/forum/message/raw?msg=net.sources/ZoPcfdMPIzQ/pEPpCV6m77QJ >> >> Link - Usenet graphic map of North America, part 2 of 2 >> - >> https://groups.google.com/forum/message/raw?msg=net.sources/cE_tkMNKZ_U/JoR7KGTJ_3YJ >> >> The dates of these articles are September 21, 1983. >> >> >> >> -- >> Grant. . . . >> unix || die >> >> >> Thanks Grant, Mary Ann found what I needed and I'm working >> away. Somehow in going back over what I used to build a >> working setup I managed to break my working setup, so I'm >> trying to fix that to get the next set of files output. >> >> -Henry >> >> >> OK, here's the second set of Usenet maps, again in raw plot and >> SVG form. The only difference with the "g" maps, produced with >> the gmap.leroy script, seems to be the addition of a few >> graphical icons. >> >> https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Y6PU1NJv8mdVr1SQsQUDnUjNlq6N2bvv/view?usp=sharing >> https://drive.google.com/file/d/1JpbMTzhmJD-amLCpYOWMPQCHyCsrC_ck/view?usp=sharing >> https://drive.google.com/file/d/1WRhiPTj1URUGNuxCh-8ERuK0FnQ_i1tk/view?usp=sharing >> https://drive.google.com/file/d/1plhCfaP1Uyxu5wAgtQEyPEA88r8JLHIW/view?usp=sharing >> >> I'm pretty sure this is how they would have looked originally, >> cluttered as they are. The nice thing about them being in a >> vector format, though, is that you could blow them up to poster >> size if you wanted to. >> >> -Henry > [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 8199 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 67+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps 2019-07-09 21:37 ` Grant Taylor via TUHS 2019-07-09 21:46 ` Henry Bent @ 2019-07-09 22:01 ` Mary Ann Horton Gmail 2019-07-09 22:44 ` Grant Taylor via TUHS 1 sibling, 1 reply; 67+ messages in thread From: Mary Ann Horton Gmail @ 2019-07-09 22:01 UTC (permalink / raw) To: tuhs Thank you, Grant! I have added these to the archive on stargatemuseum.org/maps. I will add images from Henry as well. Mary Ann On 7/9/19 2:37 PM, Grant Taylor via TUHS wrote: > On 7/9/19 2:54 PM, Mary Ann Horton Gmail wrote: >> Any chance you could do the same for this file? It looks smaller, but >> it's a couple weeks newer so it's possible it's somehow better. > > While searching for the 2nd article for the May, I found the following > articles: > > Link - Usenet graphic map of North America, part 1 of 2 > - > https://groups.google.com/forum/message/raw?msg=net.sources/ZoPcfdMPIzQ/pEPpCV6m77QJ > > Link - Usenet graphic map of North America, part 2 of 2 > - > https://groups.google.com/forum/message/raw?msg=net.sources/cE_tkMNKZ_U/JoR7KGTJ_3YJ > > The dates of these articles are September 21, 1983. > > > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 67+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps 2019-07-09 22:01 ` Mary Ann Horton Gmail @ 2019-07-09 22:44 ` Grant Taylor via TUHS 2019-07-09 23:14 ` Mary Ann Horton Gmail 0 siblings, 1 reply; 67+ messages in thread From: Grant Taylor via TUHS @ 2019-07-09 22:44 UTC (permalink / raw) To: tuhs [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 804 bytes --] On 7/9/19 4:01 PM, Mary Ann Horton Gmail wrote: > Thank you, Grant! You're welcome. > I have added these to the archive on stargatemuseum.org/maps. I will > add images from Henry as well. I'm doing some digging on this. I'm curious to learn how the data gets used. My intention, if possible, is to take the most recent data from the UUCP mapping project (currently September '98) and see if it's possible to build updated data sets to generate maps from. }:-) I'm guessing that the data from the #N, #O, and #L lines will help with this. :-D I do see multiple blank #L lines in the data I'm looking at. Maybe it will be possible to extract something from the #P lines and convert it to pseudo #L lines that can be used. }:-) -- Grant. . . . unix || die [-- Attachment #2: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature --] [-- Type: application/pkcs7-signature, Size: 4008 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 67+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps 2019-07-09 22:44 ` Grant Taylor via TUHS @ 2019-07-09 23:14 ` Mary Ann Horton Gmail 2019-07-10 0:24 ` Grant Taylor via TUHS 0 siblings, 1 reply; 67+ messages in thread From: Mary Ann Horton Gmail @ 2019-07-09 23:14 UTC (permalink / raw) To: tuhs Well, my intent is to print a packet of Usenet maps to hand out at Wednesday night's 50th UNIX Anniversary event in Seattle. I have 15 copies and a link to the PDF file on stargatemuseum.org. If possible, I'd like to add 1 or 2 or 3 of these graphical maps to the packet. It would also be helpful to have an archived copy of the full UUCP map. Stan Barber sent me one some time ago but I misplaced it, and it's not coming to his fingertips either. That would obviously be a project for later, not a paper handout, but to save on the museum web site. However, doing a graphical map based on the UUCP map, or even a Usenet map after 1987, would likely produce a completely black piece of paper :) Thanks, Mary Ann On 7/9/19 3:44 PM, Grant Taylor via TUHS wrote: > On 7/9/19 4:01 PM, Mary Ann Horton Gmail wrote: >> Thank you, Grant! > > You're welcome. > >> I have added these to the archive on stargatemuseum.org/maps. I will >> add images from Henry as well. > > I'm doing some digging on this. I'm curious to learn how the data > gets used. My intention, if possible, is to take the most recent data > from the UUCP mapping project (currently September '98) and see if > it's possible to build updated data sets to generate maps from. }:-) > > I'm guessing that the data from the #N, #O, and #L lines will help > with this. :-D > > I do see multiple blank #L lines in the data I'm looking at. Maybe it > will be possible to extract something from the #P lines and convert it > to pseudo #L lines that can be used. }:-) > > > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 67+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps 2019-07-09 23:14 ` Mary Ann Horton Gmail @ 2019-07-10 0:24 ` Grant Taylor via TUHS 2019-07-10 1:13 ` Mary Ann Horton Gmail 0 siblings, 1 reply; 67+ messages in thread From: Grant Taylor via TUHS @ 2019-07-10 0:24 UTC (permalink / raw) To: tuhs [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 377 bytes --] On 7/9/19 5:14 PM, Mary Ann Horton Gmail wrote: > However, doing a graphical map based on the UUCP map, or even a Usenet > map after 1987, would likely produce a completely black piece of paper :) Why do you say that? Based on the raw data that I have, I'm showing 2151 #N lines in the map data that I'm looking at from '98. -- Grant. . . . unix || die [-- Attachment #2: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature --] [-- Type: application/pkcs7-signature, Size: 4008 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 67+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps 2019-07-10 0:24 ` Grant Taylor via TUHS @ 2019-07-10 1:13 ` Mary Ann Horton Gmail 0 siblings, 0 replies; 67+ messages in thread From: Mary Ann Horton Gmail @ 2019-07-10 1:13 UTC (permalink / raw) To: tuhs On 7/9/19 5:24 PM, Grant Taylor via TUHS wrote: > On 7/9/19 5:14 PM, Mary Ann Horton Gmail wrote: >> However, doing a graphical map based on the UUCP map, or even a >> Usenet map after 1987, would likely produce a completely black piece >> of paper :) > > Why do you say that? > > Based on the raw data that I have, I'm showing 2151 #N lines in the > map data that I'm looking at from '98. > Well, there are 320 node names in the 3/83 graphic, and it's already bordering on illegible. 7 times as many, especially with the concentrations in NJ, Chicago, Boston, etc, it would have to be pretty creative. The Shannon map of 7/84 had over 900 hosts (just on Usenet, not including UUCP only) and they divided it into 9 sections. I suspect there were a lot more than 2100 UUCP hosts at its peak. I haven't had much luck doing searches on Google Groups - it often just gives me the first page and refuses to sort by date. Is there a good way to mine all the postings to a particular newsgroup, or all of them in a particular year? Mary Ann ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 67+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps 2019-07-09 17:12 ` Henry Bent 2019-07-09 17:25 ` Seth Morabito @ 2019-07-09 17:33 ` Clem Cole 1 sibling, 0 replies; 67+ messages in thread From: Clem Cole @ 2019-07-09 17:33 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Henry Bent; +Cc: TUHS main list [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 952 bytes --] Henry - what did you try for your parameters to plot? and did you try: plot -T png which should create a more modern png file. On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 1:13 PM Henry Bent <henry.r.bent@gmail.com> wrote: > On Tue, 9 Jul 2019 at 12:28, Mary Ann Horton Gmail <mah@mhorton.net> > wrote: > >> Does anyone have anything put together that can easily do the "leroy" >> thing described here: >> >> http://www.stargatemuseum.org/maps/032383.GRF.txt >> >> and produce the graphical map it contains? >> >> Mary Ann >> > > I got as far as compiling leroy on 4.1C BSD and feeding the attached files > through it. It ran without errors and produced a file to be fed to > plot(1G). That file is attached; I can't figure out how to do anything > useful with it. I ran it through the xterm Tek 4014 mode and just got > garbage. I'm not really familiar with plot at all, so maybe someone else > can easily produce readable output from this file. > > -Henry > [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 1886 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 67+ messages in thread
* [TUHS] Historical Usenet maps 2019-07-09 16:28 ` Mary Ann Horton Gmail 2019-07-09 16:53 ` KatolaZ 2019-07-09 17:12 ` Henry Bent @ 2019-07-15 3:21 ` Mary Ann Horton Gmail 2 siblings, 0 replies; 67+ messages in thread From: Mary Ann Horton Gmail @ 2019-07-15 3:21 UTC (permalink / raw) To: tuhs Thanks to everyone who came to the celebration in Seattle! If you missed it and want your own copy of historical (old) Usenet maps, you can download it now. I have updated the PDF online to include everything that was in the display copy. The full copy is at http://www.stargatemuseum.org/maps/ . ThisPDF is intended to be printed, because most of the pages are in landscape. Mary Ann On 7/9/19 9:28 AM, Mary Ann Horton Gmail wrote: > I've succeeded in copying the files from floppy. Thanks to everyone > for the great suggestions! > > I used a USB-to-serial adapter, combined with PuTTY and the usual > serial tools (DB-9 to DB-25 adapter, gender changer, and null modem). > I even dug out my AT&T PC 6300 MS DOS manual for details on writing > BAT files (although the main script had a bad habit of exiting after > the first file got copied). I wound up calling a 3 line script > separately for each file to be copied over, and using PuTTY's > scrolling history to save the files. > > I've collected these and other old Usenet maps here: > > http://www.stargatemuseum.org/maps/ > > I hope to display these (and hand out a few copies!) in Seattle this > week. > > Does anyone have anything put together that can easily do the "leroy" > thing described here: > > http://www.stargatemuseum.org/maps/032383.GRF.txt > > and produce the graphical map it contains? > > Mary Ann > > On 6/23/19 4:10 PM, Mary Ann Horton Gmail wrote: >> Hunting around through my ancient stuff today, I ran across a 5.25" >> floppy drive labeled as having old Usenet maps. These may have >> historical interest. >> >> First off, I don't recognize the handwriting on the disk. It's not >> mine. Does anyone recognize it? (pic attached) >> >> I dug out my AT&T 6300 (XT clone) from the garage and booted it up. >> The floppy reads just fine. It has files with .MAP extension, which >> are ASCII Usenet maps from 1980 to 1984, and some .BBM files which >> are ASCII Usenet backbone maps up to 1987. >> >> There is also a file whose extension is .GRF from 1983 which claims >> to be a graphical Usenet map. Does anyone have any idea what GRF is >> or what this map might be? I recall Brian Reid having a plotter-based >> Usenet geographic map in 84 or 85. >> >> I'd like to copy these files off for posterity. They read on DOS just >> fine. Is there a current best practice for copying off files? I would >> have guessed I'd need a to use the serial port, but my old PC has DOS >> 2.11 (not much serial copying software on it) and I don't have >> anything live with a serial port anymore. And it might not help with >> the GRF file. >> >> I took some photos of the screen with the earliest maps (the ones >> that fit on one screen.) So it's an option to type things in, at >> least for the early ASCII ones. >> >> Thanks, >> >> Mary Ann >> >> ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 67+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2019-07-15 3:22 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 67+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed) -- links below jump to the message on this page -- 2019-06-23 23:10 [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps Mary Ann Horton Gmail 2019-06-23 23:52 ` Arthur Krewat 2019-06-24 0:02 ` Grant Taylor via TUHS 2019-06-24 0:35 ` Mary Ann Horton Gmail 2019-06-24 0:53 ` Arthur Krewat 2019-06-24 0:56 ` Larry McVoy 2019-06-24 1:12 ` Arthur Krewat 2019-06-24 1:31 ` William Pechter 2019-06-24 1:51 ` Arthur Krewat 2019-06-24 1:40 ` Bakul Shah 2019-06-24 3:20 ` Grant Taylor via TUHS 2019-06-24 0:50 ` Arthur Krewat 2019-06-24 21:07 ` Michael Kjörling 2019-06-24 21:30 ` Steve Nickolas 2019-06-24 21:59 ` Gregg Levine 2019-06-23 23:57 ` Grant Taylor via TUHS 2019-06-24 0:40 ` Mary Ann Horton Gmail 2019-06-24 1:37 ` William Pechter 2019-06-24 3:17 ` Jason Stevens 2019-06-24 1:57 ` Steve Nickolas 2019-06-24 2:09 ` pechter 2019-06-24 0:03 ` Theodore Ts'o 2019-06-24 0:19 ` Seth Morabito 2019-06-24 0:33 ` Larry McVoy 2019-06-24 1:58 ` Steve Nickolas 2019-06-25 3:54 ` Jonathan Gevaryahu 2019-06-25 11:21 ` ckeck 2019-07-09 16:28 ` Mary Ann Horton Gmail 2019-07-09 16:53 ` KatolaZ 2019-07-09 17:12 ` Henry Bent 2019-07-09 17:25 ` Seth Morabito 2019-07-09 17:34 ` Henry Bent 2019-07-09 19:19 ` Henry Bent 2019-07-09 19:41 ` Richard Salz 2019-07-09 20:09 ` Grant Taylor via TUHS 2019-07-09 20:58 ` Henry Bent 2019-07-09 20:54 ` Mary Ann Horton Gmail 2019-07-09 21:30 ` Grant Taylor via TUHS 2019-07-09 21:35 ` Grant Taylor via TUHS 2019-07-09 21:37 ` Grant Taylor via TUHS 2019-07-09 21:46 ` Henry Bent 2019-07-09 22:02 ` Henry Bent 2019-07-09 23:23 ` Mary Ann Horton Gmail 2019-07-10 0:06 ` Dan Cross 2019-07-10 0:26 ` Grant Taylor via TUHS 2019-07-10 0:38 ` Dan Cross 2019-07-10 0:49 ` Larry McVoy 2019-07-10 0:57 ` Clem Cole 2019-07-10 1:26 ` [TUHS] V0 B Compiler Warren Toomey 2019-07-10 1:29 ` Clem Cole 2019-07-10 1:32 ` [TUHS] Plot 10 Sources Clem Cole 2019-07-10 2:51 ` Charles Anthony 2019-07-10 3:00 ` Charles Anthony 2019-07-10 3:01 ` Clem Cole 2019-07-10 12:51 ` Nelson H. F. Beebe 2019-07-10 14:34 ` Clem cole 2019-07-10 1:02 ` [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps Arthur Krewat 2019-07-10 1:19 ` Larry McVoy 2019-07-10 1:34 ` Dave Horsfall 2019-07-10 0:28 ` Mary Ann Horton Gmail 2019-07-09 22:01 ` Mary Ann Horton Gmail 2019-07-09 22:44 ` Grant Taylor via TUHS 2019-07-09 23:14 ` Mary Ann Horton Gmail 2019-07-10 0:24 ` Grant Taylor via TUHS 2019-07-10 1:13 ` Mary Ann Horton Gmail 2019-07-09 17:33 ` Clem Cole 2019-07-15 3:21 ` [TUHS] Historical " Mary Ann Horton Gmail
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