From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.5 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,HTML_FONT_LOW_CONTRAST,HTML_MESSAGE, MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [50.116.15.146]) by inbox.vuxu.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1AFBF27D01 for ; Wed, 3 Jul 2024 17:53:18 +0200 (CEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 33F2E42AA0; Thu, 4 Jul 2024 01:53:15 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-vk1-xa2d.google.com (mail-vk1-xa2d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::a2d]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 403F142A9C for ; Thu, 4 Jul 2024 01:53:07 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-vk1-xa2d.google.com with SMTP id 71dfb90a1353d-4f284ef075dso480612e0c.1 for ; Wed, 03 Jul 2024 08:53:07 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ccc.com; s=google; t=1720021986; x=1720626786; darn=tuhs.org; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=uYI5UjO/k3h2eo7bTZJtn8cHEA0UOVzafk4PeS8M/Ao=; b=OZMBtzvXqjjDa3Q3jl9eEpO2BMo5DYNZykeOZ9YxAf1mRggwn6BL5anNHYs1QNZdZp M/1y6AqG0zc5nkS3ZsUzm71z2ICyezuiFv81PhAq/oiku/A90Hb+aZvtG1uF4kYfschX rPWxZgAqclkMx+ggHW8DUr9DTA+xG7nFboxiQ= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1720021986; x=1720626786; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=uYI5UjO/k3h2eo7bTZJtn8cHEA0UOVzafk4PeS8M/Ao=; b=nH4BCPQnjKv/s50qoXYq+ZkC1hJpN28p73eeZva08YxCFKOPfcTbW4YZGtEK1eITHo 5Z/sw7Xc5QmXBpnM+qWuq5sDL3q7KWv3RPkYLPQmBEyV/cZffHGzn4sMHaCL3uIvSOjr DGQw2XSX5hx1/sdhI1QwRaTnnK3mMz7dBbD7HiHZG3GQuT30B6b3NmadRC3UvCSO9yQz lVid39jfgRx2px+eLb4k9g41GMcmNh9l1e7JHmALY0jm+BB44X+An0bDC74HZAJK1CQk fwC61kiyeWC/XdOc1q2qFnJtFLfg5NNtkfHA6e914AxdYPLJAT72wF9wklReMsgnJCge PNiQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YxkuF7ZLrok+4k6oECBMRvfa8/ME1bBBrw8dsYXSmhDAde/75q7 W0csvEqaWUnhk542XcVl0v79UKLug8qXInSvybY2xBzImYZhBIsv8fWy4iffu2fYI9sQr9W7b1U fRooWtahWAPY2A90Zf/zegYjTxC4uQ9kSa0ILHEtvJLQXhpKL3w== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IE0qnU6ZUcWEC/Qq0U11OsQoP05t7maiNzmJAuKVnmjVgb3cWhCA1/eVtQhphavADxFXtoBgXUC69WfZQr4fJQ= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6122:2495:b0:4eb:554f:20a9 with SMTP id 71dfb90a1353d-4f2e0ab4283mr1433672e0c.5.1720021986116; Wed, 03 Jul 2024 08:53:06 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Clem Cole Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2024 11:52:30 -0400 Message-ID: To: Norman Wilson Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000007d2339061c59d366" Message-ID-Hash: ZQYHVPZEE3CCVDNG435D4SBTV5E3EEAH X-Message-ID-Hash: ZQYHVPZEE3CCVDNG435D4SBTV5E3EEAH X-MailFrom: clemc@ccc.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; header-match-tuhs.tuhs.org-0; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: tuhs@tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: Anyone ever heard of teaching a case study of Initial Unix? List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: --0000000000007d2339061c59d366 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable s/be far/be fair/ Sorry, Grammerly rewrote that and I missed it with my dyslexia. =E1=90=A7 =E1=90=A7 On Wed, Jul 3, 2024 at 11:45=E2=80=AFAM Clem Cole wrote: > > > On Wed, Jul 3, 2024 at 10:46=E2=80=AFAM Norman Wilson = wrote: > >> Steve Jenkin: >> >> I've never heard of a Computer Science or Software Engineering progra= m >> that included a `case study' component, especially for Software >> Development & Projects. >> >> [...] >> >> How about the course for which John Lions wrote his famous >> exegesis of the 6/e kernel? >> >> Norman Wilson >> Toronto ON > > This >>might<< be far from an OS >>developer<< perspective [*i.e*., for a > practitioner of SW development for an OS]. However, I'm quite sure it is > the same thing. In Lion's case, he looks at the code and final system = in > the same manner to examine the technical output/result (a complete > timesharing system than in "modest HW", that a single person could > understand as it was less than 9000 KLOCs). This is like an architectur= e > class might take apart drawings of Notre Dame Cathedral to examine how th= e > structure was developed to carry such huge loads of stone, wood, and lead > but still allow so much light in the building (such as the class on my CM= U > roommates who became a restoration architect for buildings like 30th Stre= et > Station in Philadelphia). Case studies (which originated at HSB and are > now de rigor in most B-schools) look at the choices made, given a set of > initial conditions to create a (business) result [positively and > negatively]. What could be learned from the conditions, choices, and > results so that feature (business) leaders can recognize what might not b= e > obvious? The idea is that you are teaching managers about choices > that change/predict a future outcome. This is not the same as field > practitioners trying to make a structure/machine/program to >>operate<< t= o > do some design function. > > So, the place where a case study for SW projects (using books like > Mythical Man Month) would be helpful is an in-software engineering course= . > Writing an HSB style case for something like UNIX, or Tenex or maybe > Oracle; particularly to compared to something like Brook's book would be > fascinating to read, I'm not sure Lion's text qualifies. I think the > content of such a "case" would be quite different. > > Again, it comes back to what "success" is. If success is defined as > winning the market, OS/360 was a huge success, as was DOS. But neither > would I consider a success from the standpoint of building something that > future generations of programmers would want to learn to emulate. > =E1=90=A7 > =E1=90=A7 > --0000000000007d2339061c59d366 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
s/be far/be fair/

Sorry, Grammerly= =C2=A0rewrote that and I missed it with my dyslexia.
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On Wed, Jul 3, 2024 at 11:45=E2=80=AFAM Cl= em Cole <clemc@ccc.co= m> wrote:


On = Wed, Jul 3, 2024 at 10:46=E2=80=AFAM Norman Wilson <norman@oclsc.org> wrote:
Steve Jenkin:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0I've never heard of a Computer Science or Software Enginee= ring program
=C2=A0 =C2=A0that included a `case study' component, especially for Sof= tware
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Development & Projects.

[...]

=C2=A0 =C2=A0How about the course for which John Lions wrote his famous=
exegesis of the 6/e kernel?

Norman Wilson
Toronto ON
This >>might<< be far fr= om an OS >>developer<< perspective [i.e., for a practiti= oner of SW development for an OS]. However, I'm quite sure it is the sa= me thing.=C2=A0 =C2=A0 In Lion's case, he looks at the code and final s= ystem in the same manner to examine the technical output/result=C2=A0 (a co= mplete timesharing system than in "modest HW", that a single pers= on could understand as it was less than 9000 KLOCs).=C2=A0 =C2=A0This is li= ke an architecture class might take apart drawings of Notre Dame Cathedral = to examine how the structure was developed to carry such huge loads of ston= e, wood, and lead but still allow so much light in the building (such as th= e class on my CMU roommates who became a restoration architect for building= s like 30th Street Station in Philadelphia).=C2=A0 Case studies=C2=A0(which= originated at HSB and are now de rigor in most B-schools) look=C2=A0at the= choices made, given a set of initial conditions to create a (business) res= ult [positively and negatively].=C2=A0 =C2=A0What could be learned from the= conditions, choices, and results so that feature (business) leaders can re= cognize what might not be obvious? The idea is that you are teaching manage= rs about choices that=C2=A0change/predict a future outcome.=C2=A0 This is n= ot the same as field practitioners trying to make a structure/machine/progr= am to >>operate<< to do some design function.
=
So, t= he place where a case study for SW projects (using books like Mythical Man = Month) would be helpful is an in-software engineering course. Writing a= n HSB style case for something like UNIX, or Tenex or maybe Oracle; particu= larly to compared to something like Brook's book would be fascinating t= o read, I'm not sure Lion's text qualifies.=C2=A0 =C2=A0I think the= content of such a "case" would be quite different.=

Again, it come= s back to what "success" is. If success is defined as winning the= market, OS/360 was a huge success, as was DOS. But neither would I=C2=A0co= nsider a success from the standpoint=C2=A0of building something that future= generations of programmers would want to learn to emulate.
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