From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.1 (2015-04-28) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU,HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,HTML_FONT_LOW_CONTRAST, HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.1 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [45.79.103.53]) by inbox.vuxu.org (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id f71ff4cd for ; Mon, 25 Jun 2018 20:10:06 +0000 (UTC) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id CA9AEA17DE; Tue, 26 Jun 2018 06:10:05 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E71009E5BE; Tue, 26 Jun 2018 06:09:42 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=pass (1024-bit key; unprotected) header.d=ccc.com header.i=@ccc.com header.b=Gs8MZYsU; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 9CA4B9E5BE; Tue, 26 Jun 2018 06:09:40 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-it0-f46.google.com (mail-it0-f46.google.com [209.85.214.46]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 056F99E5BD for ; Tue, 26 Jun 2018 06:09:40 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-it0-f46.google.com with SMTP id a195-v6so14287228itd.3 for ; Mon, 25 Jun 2018 13:09:39 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ccc.com; s=google; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=M6aH2iUE3plYfiG/t/It134yzQXqssWUlXfWEmHSJlA=; b=Gs8MZYsU3/gFcs1PtT0rNmCrEbeWUyoJyFnbkDiTcOPfizNFxgCO/HS7D6hBhsoUmQ DwRTJzjrwDjdjNrWz8r5L1IefTPbABBKkGVdkodEKSeDRcxkwFCASEDl0ah38CwrRJFp Yxo/2fq1G+1Rc2HHdc3LCEoIw/xLLMUJyDG54= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=M6aH2iUE3plYfiG/t/It134yzQXqssWUlXfWEmHSJlA=; b=iI8p9DRzJbAa74hjg1cwHFWT6LsQm4CnspqJ1NudNBfbWMgLPTtlKaHbzIBK+G1+NR 7D2x8S48Ee++QzRXxTg4sXaZjCMxVChykHQj5hHMiSTVYxfyr8q942F9Qw1XHcaUHlg8 14LFcYJ2hVmWb2E7/9mc74f8i2YMfoDckMmhSYBLrdxgD8o9FQSDJgw6NnxunGKW6cmw QP1hPs/4X69VspFBIFHG15KmydtYTVw3DoquHMKBI/6jduQT2gYxevP2R3La/AJkwBcH Y92rPwOBoVrccs9bbRUKxFAw0qCICN9imwz654ZuGAnA/qT4Ue+AOcxPDm242V7VM9VO calA== X-Gm-Message-State: APt69E0FF2gi5ZNEaFrQtSzJV9nxRkUrqeoSD8F0mnISLuY6hrTYDRqs JqGBwEh8XBElKXuSxiGAnfcQEW2SCpOnc+cMZtXKIg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AAOMgpcCZxOcN85B25JPJs+KlhltMQNtKVCEeXwYBB9XDpcUBiIY69a6fL/Ipfu7o3qe860of+RXeVyL7W/Yug3tUzY= X-Received: by 2002:a24:987:: with SMTP id 129-v6mr2174613itm.136.1529957379287; Mon, 25 Jun 2018 13:09:39 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a4f:ca8a:0:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Mon, 25 Jun 2018 13:09:08 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <3950d997-d310-7cfc-30bf-237e9d872739@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <20180625161016.C16BA18C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <3950d997-d310-7cfc-30bf-237e9d872739@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> From: Clem Cole Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2018 16:09:08 -0400 Message-ID: To: Grant Taylor Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000001d455d056f7cf658" Subject: Re: [TUHS] off-topic list X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: TUHS main list Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" --0000000000001d455d056f7cf658 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Below... On Mon, Jun 25, 2018 at 3:35 PM, Grant Taylor via TUHS wrote: > On 06/25/2018 11:37 AM, Clem Cole wrote: > >> Ah ... Makes sense. MMDF was possibly my favorite Unix MTA. >> > > Hum. I have no experience with MMDF. Perhaps I should play. =E2=80=8BWarning.... there a lot of stuff that is pre-internet in the guts = (i.e. was designed during the Arpanet) so IP support got added to it. And even with the last versions, its missing a lot (i.e. I'm the person that hacked^h^h^h^h^h^hadded the original BSD resolv client code to it one weekend, lord knows how many years ago). Again this is why QMAIL became the replacement. Borstien is an amazing coder and I respect him immensely, although his personality leaves a little to be desired...=E2=80=8B > > > We shipped it as Masscomp's default Mail System for a longtime. >> > > I never knew that MMDF was used anywhere other than SCO Unix. (I don't > know which SCO product.) > =E2=80=8BAhem ... We did it before they did (by a number of year actually= ). It was also the mail for CS-NET/PhoneNET, when BBN picked it up.=E2=80=8B > According to Wikipedia PMDF was used on VMS. Now I wonder if there's any > relation to PMDF and what I've frequently heard referred to a Mail-11. =E2=80=8BMail-11 is DEC's mail standard. And is mostly a protocol spec. PMDF was a pseudo open source rewrite of MMDF (from on the mid western universities I believe), that got taken closed and I never knew all of the politics. Larry M correct me here, he might know some of it, as I'm thinking PMDF came out of Wisconsin originally. Whoever wrote it, took the CS-Net C MMDF implementation and rewrote it into Pascal for VMS - this was during the height the C vs Pascal war in CS Depts and also the time of the UNIX vs VMS wars.=E2=80=8B The DEC Pascal Compiler was very good and wa= s an excellent teaching compiler. Paul W might remember the ordering of the releases from the compiler group, but I think VMS Pascal was released before VAX-11C -- which I think played into the MMDF/PMDF thing. As I recall, VMS Pascal definitely was bundled in the University package and was 'cheaper' if you were willing to run VMS instead of Unix at your University. Anyway, the folks that did PMDF formed a small firm and sold it for a while. There was a commercial IP implementation from France call TUV for VMS and IIRC, the TUV folks bought PMDF and whole thing got sold to a lot people and had quite a ride . > > > It was only after I left that they broken down and switched to sendmail t= o >> be like Sun and much of the rest of the internet. >> > > The Wikipedia article also indicates that PMDF became Sun Java System > Messaging Server. Which seems to counter Clem's comment. > =E2=80=8BI know nothing about that. I wonder of the Pascal version got reimplemented in Java at some point. I do not know. That would not surprise me.=E2=80=8B > > Or, perhaps as typical for Sun, there are multiple solutions to the same > ""problem. Ship Sendmail with the base OS but sell a larger product that > (hypothetically) does a super set of functions. =E2=80=8BThat would sound more like it. Also left and right hands not tal= king to each other. Sun had become a large place by that point.=E2=80=8B > > > any MTA on the internet had to be hardenned. I'm sure MMDF could be >> attacked with stack overwrites and strcpy(3) style attacks because when >> Crocker wrote it, that was not what was being considered. >> > > Thankfully you don't have to put an MTA directly on the internet to be > able to play with it. It's trivial to put an MTA behind a smart host tha= t > that shields the (potentially) vulnerable MTA from the brunt of the > Internet. =E2=80=8BSure, but its more work than I want to mess with these days. Bes= t wishes and have at it =F0=9F=98=98=E2=80=8B =E1=90=A7 --0000000000001d455d056f7cf658 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Below...

On Mon, Jun 25, 2018 at 3:35 PM, Grant Taylor via TUHS <tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org> wrote:
On 06/25/2018 11:37 AM, Clem Cole wrote:
Ah ... Makes sense.=C2=A0 MMDF was possibly my favorite Unix MTA.

 Hum.=C2=A0 I have no experience with MMDF.=C2=A0 Perhaps I should play.
=E2=80=8BWarning.... there a lot of stuff that is pre-inte= rnet in the guts (i.e. was designed during the Arpanet) so IP support got a= dded to it.=C2=A0 =C2=A0And even with the last versions, its missing a lot = (i.e. I'm the person that hacked^h^h^h^h^h^hadded the original BSD reso= lv client code to it one weekend, lord knows how many years ago).=C2=A0 =C2= =A0Again this is why QMAIL became the replacement.=C2=A0 Borstien is an ama= zing coder and I respect him immensely, although his personality leaves a l= ittle to be desired...=E2=80=8B


=C2=A0


We shipped it as Masscomp's default Mail System for a longtime.

 I never knew that MMDF was used anywhere other than SCO Unix.=C2=A0 (I don&= #39;t know which SCO product.)
=E2= =80=8BAhem ...=C2=A0 =C2=A0We did it before they did (by a number of year a= ctually).=C2=A0 =C2=A0It was also the mail for CS-NET/PhoneNET, when BBN pi= cked it up.=E2=80=8B
=C2=A0


According to Wikipedia PMDF was used on VMS.=C2=A0 Now I wonder if there= 9;s any relation to PMDF and what I've frequently heard referred to a M= ail-11.
=E2=80=8BMail-11 is DEC's mail standard. An= d is mostly a protocol spec.

PMDF was a pseudo open so= urce rewrite of MMDF (from on the mid western universities I believe), th= at got taken closed and I never knew all of the politics.=C2=A0 Larr= y M correct me here, he might know some of it, as I'm thinking PMDF cam= e out of Wisconsin originally.=C2=A0 Whoever wrote it, took the CS-Net C MM= DF implementation and rewrote it into Pascal for VMS - this was during the = height the C vs Pascal war in CS Depts and also the time of the UNIX vs VMS= wars.=E2=80=8B=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0The DEC Pascal Compiler was very good an= d was an excellent teaching compiler.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Paul W might remember the= ordering of the releases from the compiler group, but I think VMS Pascal w= as released before VAX-11C -- which I think played into the MMDF/PMDF thing= .=C2=A0 =C2=A0As I recall, VMS Pascal definitely was bundled in the Univers= ity package and was 'cheaper' if you were willing to run VMS instea= d of Unix at your University.=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Anyway, the folks t= hat did PMDF formed a small firm and sold it for a while.=C2=A0 =C2=A0There= was a commercial IP implementation from France call TUV for VMS and IIRC, = the TUV folks bought PMDF and whole thing got sold to a lot people and had = quite a ride .



=C2=A0


It was only after I left that they broken down and switched to sendmail to = be like Sun and much of the rest of the internet.

 The Wikipedia article also indicates that PMDF became Sun Java System Messa= ging Server.=C2=A0 Which seems to counter Clem's comment.
=E2=80=8BI know nothing about that.=C2=A0 =C2=A0I wonder of the = Pascal version got reimplemented in Java at some point.=C2=A0 I do not know= .=C2=A0 That would not surprise me.=E2=80=8B

=C2=A0

Or, perhaps as typical for Sun, there are multiple solutions to the same &q= uot;"problem.=C2=A0 Ship Sendmail with the base OS but sell a larger p= roduct that (hypothetically) does a super set of functions.
=E2=80=8BThat would sound more like it.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Also left and righ= t hands not talking to each other.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Sun had become a large place= by that point.=E2=80=8B

=C2=A0


any MTA on the internet had to be hardenned.=C2=A0 I'm sure MMDF could = be attacked with stack overwrites and strcpy(3) style attacks because when = Crocker wrote it, that was not what was being considered.

 Thankfully you don't have to put an MTA directly on the internet to be = able to play with it.=C2=A0 It's trivial to put an MTA behind a smart h= ost that that shields the (potentially) vulnerable MTA from the brunt of th= e Internet.
=E2=80=8BSure, but its more work than I wan= t to mess with these days.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Best wishes and have at it =F0=9F=98= =98=E2=80=8B

=C2=A0
3D""=E1=90= =A7
--0000000000001d455d056f7cf658--