From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.1 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 7272 invoked from network); 11 Jan 2022 18:50:27 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (45.79.103.53) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 11 Jan 2022 18:50:27 -0000 Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id C12989CFE8; Wed, 12 Jan 2022 04:50:26 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5CF109CFC8; Wed, 12 Jan 2022 04:50:09 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=pass (1024-bit key; unprotected) header.d=ccc.com header.i=@ccc.com header.b="SpJF9JXs"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 353FC9CFC8; Wed, 12 Jan 2022 04:50:07 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-qv1-f43.google.com (mail-qv1-f43.google.com [209.85.219.43]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 25F579C78F for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2022 04:50:05 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-qv1-f43.google.com with SMTP id jr5so234739qvb.11 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2022 10:50:05 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ccc.com; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=ORIIq2K9gFnQJBqERujqgc1Qdsoa0UdvlqEdN9GoNrY=; b=SpJF9JXsvG/8d19f2cPsr/YPAdQQ4codPC6s+yM9nKaUw1ztMy46F6rbR5jFKv1eMC cOIBDC7PsKulRcMdODb+Pbfu3Lleq6k+LULC/cc2NlqLPYoiOpXtWMr9/YSxgxh+I8aw 02A0Xd+p/JdowicUVW2+yAVluj5Csv1K7SZlI= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=ORIIq2K9gFnQJBqERujqgc1Qdsoa0UdvlqEdN9GoNrY=; b=2pOCnf5onwV2aWt3rl/iFEJCMiz7O15no3shCp0+S5bElMKhIrUQ/rj+imVke9xfR3 kI7Uyn+VF8l9KuHA3ebQj6JRF6bIgwg9WD59hGDy/M+kEAQQNJPWX4WTXmmbQSe5sFit AYH9FqsoxOFTRrlx5LkOoLlCBKuPJOkcQbJv72nRxpvIoRQEg2ScvLInWOpK6fC0gJMA fFYQ4hvBSzSlRqSP/9vje54rywIQnoOwhXEqjvsPloAVTBfbK9CTYGos4HN8f7cSkxW/ Le6V1L8crus+Tgo1bCaLVlXqcg7Z7swmNls/QfdBoFU7i7Wsi+oe2/1EjGOVmdzCVhke z2+g== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533dBpu9Nco+kT9AcxT+Gjd4u/gg9LxCk3mjRrdtBM53ch24CM/I KvLmG5LAPf0SH/I8ceMf7x2uz6++k7qKqjLyoiXXMgBu+lgUVw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxKcF/8cHXdygL1WkgMCtQr0i/m3g9fR+5SCBLlYzSBKLS5myC/XsO0umVgoxzbQtuEDBKgrs2Y6zHhbJlZabY= X-Received: by 2002:a0c:beca:: with SMTP id f10mr5032751qvj.97.1641927004162; Tue, 11 Jan 2022 10:50:04 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20211231234039.GU31637@mcvoy.com> <20220101005605.GL75481@eureka.lemis.com> <20220101031511.GB8135@mcvoy.com> <20220111015901.GE25103@eureka.lemis.com> <4409b91cd794867d@orthanc.ca> <20220111024218.GE3441@mcvoy.com> In-Reply-To: From: Clem Cole Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2022 13:49:38 -0500 Message-ID: To: Richard Salz Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000d49d7a05d552eb04" Subject: Re: [TUHS] Demise of TeX and groff (was: roff(7)) X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: TUHS main list , Douglas McIlroy Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" --000000000000d49d7a05d552eb04 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Yeah, but the original Wang CAT4 version of troff was available without the extra license - its in the BSD tree. Now that was tied to the original UNIX license of course but it was available. Many (??most??) sites use the vcat program that Tom Ferrin wrote that used the Hershey Fonts to plot the output on a Versatec or later Varian plotter. The original Imagen which was forked from a Stanford project used that scheme until Adobe released Transcript. Brian's Device Independent Troff (ditroff) took another license either source or binary redistribution. DEC for instance, offered it as a layered product to Ultrix, and I think Sun did the same thing. At Masscomp I convinced management that tracking the sites that had it and which did not was too much of a PITA and if we just paid AT&T $15 and Adobe $1 a system, Engineering could just assume it was there. Of course, Tim and Dale both saw ditroff at Masscomp and took that (and Steve Talbot's modified mS macros and Janet Egan's set of book making tools) with them to ORA when they wrote the original NutShell book suite. I'm not sure Tim ever saw the original troff because as soon as I got there, I bought the ditroff and transcript licenses and rid us of the CAT4 stuff. Clem On Tue, Jan 11, 2022 at 11:56 AM Richard Salz wrote: > > > On Tue, Jan 11, 2022 at 10:49 AM Clem Cole wrote: > >> >> On Mon, Jan 10, 2022 at 9:43 PM Larry McVoy wrote: >> >>> It's docs. The *roff docs were locked up with the Unix license. >> >> >> Larry point taken but ... I'm not so sure that specific statement is true. >> > > I read it as s/locked up with/useless without/ > > --000000000000d49d7a05d552eb04 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Yeah, but the original Wang CAT4 version of troff was a= vailable without the extra license - its in the BSD tree.=C2=A0 Now that wa= s tied to the original UNIX license of course but it was available. =C2=A0 = Many (??most??) sites use the vcat program that Tom Ferrin wrote that used= =C2=A0the Hershey Fonts to plot the output on a Versatec or later Varian pl= otter. =C2=A0 The original Imagen which was forked from a Stanford project = used that scheme until Adobe released Transcript.

Bria= n's Device Independent=C2=A0Troff (ditroff) took another license either= =C2=A0source or binary redistribution.=C2=A0 DEC for instance, offered it a= s a layered product to Ultrix, and I think Sun did the same thing. =C2=A0 A= t Masscomp I convinced management that tracking the sites that had it and w= hich did not was too much of a PITA and if we just paid AT&T $15 and Ad= obe $1 a system, Engineering could just assume it was there.

Of course, Tim and Dale both saw ditroff at Masscomp and took that (= and Steve Talbot's modified=C2=A0mS macros and Janet Egan's set of = book making tools) with them to ORA when they wrote the original NutShell b= ook suite.=C2=A0 I'm not sure Tim ever saw the original troff because a= s soon as I got there, I bought the ditroff and transcript licenses and rid= us of the CAT4 stuff.

Clem

On Tue, Jan 11, 2022= at 11:56 AM Richard Salz <rich.s= alz@gmail.com> wrote:


On Tue, Jan 11, 2022 at 10:49 AM Clem Cole <clemc@ccc.com> wrote:

On Mon, Jan= 10, 2022 at 9:43 PM Larry McVoy <lm@mcvoy.com> wrote:
= It's docs.=C2=A0 The *roff docs were locked up = with the Unix license.

Larry point=C2=A0taken but ... I'm no= t so sure that specific=C2=A0statement is true.

I read it as s/locked up with/useless without= /

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