From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.6 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [IPv6:2600:3c01:e000:146::1]) by inbox.vuxu.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB09629846 for ; Mon, 17 Jun 2024 02:29:34 +0200 (CEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 83E8643136; Mon, 17 Jun 2024 10:29:29 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-vk1-xa32.google.com (mail-vk1-xa32.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::a32]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 212FD430FF for ; Mon, 17 Jun 2024 10:29:25 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-vk1-xa32.google.com with SMTP id 71dfb90a1353d-4eb3277badcso1144519e0c.3 for ; Sun, 16 Jun 2024 17:29:25 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ccc.com; s=google; t=1718584164; x=1719188964; darn=tuhs.org; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=6MmDFxtkqqA4lZVJnWJqbS4nyNwi0RV3hnKw55h+s2U=; b=NJFDvqkUl5jXkOElPHvowitcuAL9Q8ha5yB0xUq4xCTAUpuWpiz/e0WJ8ILzVnf6D/ nvkCaHll/Dn3P2GPzexj9N/BSdUq25Pfickm3GcoXmQqwHgPOA5Wgc8vU0W3yJmLBBD9 oaufALF6etgLsT/vRDUQwWO7y0p6QCSk8MfD0= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1718584164; x=1719188964; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=6MmDFxtkqqA4lZVJnWJqbS4nyNwi0RV3hnKw55h+s2U=; b=OksQhG1POTbY8B5Vb2TCCKi84G8LPGpaOxKN3D3wjFycF0aWdwM2oQtlabQaBAnPAn HbgZLKK7TYHx45y24TS4/rldZlDzah7sJZC3lNciK8Z7lxRFPdBLmXrDWOoByap+z+Q9 gxRSjVSLI2F4w8OR2J3jJ1pIRKzwVRDEg2emOxKe/gQ3uYIh6I0pe4xZIPuUGK275GwT F7E90dubPnA9EyRma6Ek82bbnJnPsjk9Dj+dxPGvUF48aHF+tCboyqSjRafPXTt7IYWa TWLdRgnN/+PipVzguwqQQaSyLoV/qtRhkDExcj2riRpHuBqr282lJjpuRphqG9bKbJGE oBeQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0Yytjek8OZhoBQg6Du6YH0I5rFHFxIRr9fmJ65e3QdACn2mX818b XaQj8VyheVPgnoPX7mThEizdiZsLKS4g/y6oltXfkZ8OFtxpOaBcaxkWmVh4PDOFMUz+GZWFjBo Nq0EWcruVXA7WgzDVCUKXUxhhcdppvm3pqCE0AFAhrJwmgxE= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IFIfr3voDlsHndAsuKL5tt865yjiz3OPnMj4aL3IF8In7djwSpKfNegfja6XxQhW9fPC9c5+YQ7UzO5zxGDy7A= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6122:911:b0:4d4:20cb:8c0 with SMTP id 71dfb90a1353d-4ee3e97ff2amr7854243e0c.8.1718584162896; Sun, 16 Jun 2024 17:29:22 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <73819d1a-395a-4b74-a20c-0123fbed56bd@technologists.com> <87msnl4ew0.fsf@gmail.com> <90972698-038C-494E-8826-34F2B6E57B71@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <90972698-038C-494E-8826-34F2B6E57B71@gmail.com> From: Clem Cole Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2024 20:29:11 -0400 Message-ID: To: Peter Yardley Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000008bedeb061b0b0e17" Message-ID-Hash: JCKNV3MXEMLV4ZKATKM5P37KA2KMOGWE X-Message-ID-Hash: JCKNV3MXEMLV4ZKATKM5P37KA2KMOGWE X-MailFrom: clemc@ccc.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: Version 256 of systemd boasts '42% less Unix philosophy' The Register List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: --0000000000008bedeb061b0b0e17 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Except A68 is the core of Bourne Shell. Truth is original Algol=E2=80=99s D= NA - much less A68 - lived on in most programming languages we use today. Not knowing anything about both puts you at a huge disadvantage. Linux at its core is the Unix ideas (core IP) not the source code. Trying to rid it of so called =E2=80=9Cbad ideas=E2=80=9D shows how little respect= those taking such actions have. In others word, their taste is rather disappointing if not out right poor. Frankly my major complaint with much of the modern world is that when we ignore the past and we are cursed for forgetting its lessons. As had been said many times before, we are better served when we stand on the shoulders of great people rather than stepping on their toes. This discussion wrt the systemd is a prefect example. Sent from a handheld expect more typos than usual On Sun, Jun 16, 2024 at 8:11=E2=80=AFPM Peter Yardley < peter.martin.yardley@gmail.com> wrote: > Algol has been a dead language for many years, for good reasons too. > > > On 17 Jun 2024, at 5:44=E2=80=AFAM, Clem Cole wrote: > > > > > > > > On Sun, Jun 16, 2024 at 2:50=E2=80=AFPM Greg A. Woods wrote: > > In the "Unix world" everyone learns shell scripting, some better than > > others of course, and some hate it at the same time too, but I would sa= y > > from my experience it's a given. You either learn shell scripting or > > you are "just a user" (even if you also write application code). > > Side story - I think you can tell a lot about a person by what is on > their bookshelf at work and what books they have read. > > > > A few years ago, I discovered this same flaw in using UNIX (Linux) well > with some of the new hires (from really good schools, too), and it was > worse because they often had never seen the true Bourne shell (nor knew > much/anything about Algol, much less A68). Many thought "bash" was the > UNIX shell because they never knew better (chuckle). I realized it was = a > huge hole in their education, so I got my admin to order each copies of > K&R2 and UPE for their desks. I said I expected them to do the exercise= s > in them as part of their "training." I could usually tell a lot about eac= h > person by the questions they asked during that period. Many often griped > about having to learn to use ed and nroff. I think those that were alrea= dy > EMACS folks thought I was a little bonkers but my comment was that you'll > understand the other tools better/be a lot more effective with the shell = in > particular. Many had seen Latex, so the >>idea<< of a document compiler w= as > not always completely foreign. But they crawled through each book. > > > > But it was interesting when it was done. To a person, they all said the= y > were much better with the UNIX tool kit after UPE, and because they > actually read K&R2, they often learned a few things about C they never > realized. Once they "graduated" also I gave them a copy of APUE, if they > were doing networking stuff, UNP too. Most would start doing the APUE an= d > UNP problems also as I would get some of them coming to my office with > questions, but I never said they had to do them. > > > > Clem > > =E1=90=A7 > > Peter Yardley > peter.martin.yardley@gmail.com > > --0000000000008bedeb061b0b0e17 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Except A68 is the core of Bourne Shell. Truth is original= Algol=E2=80=99s DNA =C2=A0- much less A68 - lived on in most programming l= anguages we use today.=C2=A0 Not knowing anything about both puts you at a = huge disadvantage. =C2=A0

Linux at its core is the Unix ideas (core IP) not the source code.=C2=A0 = Trying to rid it of so called =E2=80=9Cbad ideas=E2=80=9D shows how little = respect those taking such actions have. In others word, their taste is rath= er disappointing if not out right poor. =C2=A0

<= /div>
Frankly my major complaint with much of the modern w= orld is that when we ignore the past and we are cursed for forgetting its l= essons.=C2=A0 As had been said many times before, we are better served when= we stand on the shoulders of great people rather than stepping on their to= es.=C2=A0

This discussio= n wrt the systemd is a prefect example. =C2=A0

Sent from a handheld expect more typos than u= sual


On Sun, Jun 16, 2024 at 8:11=E2=80=AFPM= Peter Yardley <peter.= martin.yardley@gmail.com> wrote:
Algol has been a dead language for many years, for good reasons too.
> On 17 Jun 2024, at 5:44=E2=80=AFAM, Clem Cole <clemc@ccc.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> On Sun, Jun 16, 2024 at 2:50=E2=80=AFPM Greg A. Woods <woods@robohack.ca> wrote:=
> In the "Unix world" everyone learns shell scripting, some be= tter than
> others of course, and some hate it at the same time too, but I would s= ay
> from my experience it's a given.=C2=A0 You either learn shell scri= pting or
> you are "just a user" (even if you also write application co= de).
> Side story - I think you can tell a lot about a person by what is on t= heir bookshelf at work and what books they have read.
>
> A few years ago, I discovered this same flaw in using UNIX (Linux) wel= l with some of the new hires (from really good schools, too), and it was wo= rse because they often had never seen the true Bourne shell (nor knew much/= anything about Algol, much less A68).=C2=A0 Many thought "bash" w= as the UNIX shell because they never knew better (chuckle).=C2=A0 =C2=A0I r= ealized it was a huge hole in their education, so I got my admin to order e= ach copies of K&R2 and UPE for their desks.=C2=A0 =C2=A0I said I expect= ed them to do the exercises in them as part of their "training." = I could usually tell a lot about each person by the questions they asked du= ring that period. Many often griped about having to learn to use ed and nro= ff.=C2=A0 I think those that were already EMACS folks thought I was a littl= e bonkers but my comment was that you'll understand the other tools bet= ter/be a lot more effective with the shell in particular. Many had seen Lat= ex, so the >>idea<< of a document compiler was not always compl= etely foreign.=C2=A0 But they crawled through each book.
>
> But it was interesting when it was done. To a person, they all said th= ey were much better with the UNIX tool kit after UPE, and because they actu= ally read K&R2, they often learned a few things about C they never real= ized.=C2=A0 Once they "graduated" also I gave them a copy of APUE= , if they were doing networking stuff, UNP too.=C2=A0 Most would start doin= g the APUE and UNP problems also as I would get some of them coming to my o= ffice with questions, but I never said they had to do them.
>
> Clem
> =E1=90=A7

Peter Yardley
peter.m= artin.yardley@gmail.com

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