From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 21647 invoked from network); 30 Nov 2020 16:56:03 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (45.79.103.53) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 30 Nov 2020 16:56:03 -0000 Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id ACC749C20C; Tue, 1 Dec 2020 02:55:57 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 656349C204; Tue, 1 Dec 2020 02:55:08 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=fail reason="signature verification failed" (1024-bit key; unprotected) header.d=ccc.com header.i=@ccc.com header.b="gISHIVKy"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id A63A49C204; Tue, 1 Dec 2020 02:55:05 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-ot1-f51.google.com (mail-ot1-f51.google.com [209.85.210.51]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6AD809C203 for ; Tue, 1 Dec 2020 02:55:04 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-ot1-f51.google.com with SMTP id t18so3484531otk.2 for ; Mon, 30 Nov 2020 08:55:04 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ccc.com; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=zGkdqUIkKGQqN0a6h29Zpa4d2dmaNMHREhPRi+79EAU=; b=gISHIVKy0DfhacE2yow21IujgAD7zFtf7We0JzAzuGdbpXUb0nLEHsj+rrCdsLgIJ0 vhwVjc8wC5EDC3LF1lVtjqgw3Dw6Tg/GHU7Um65uVG3xLW4jq7lKecQQ9uo/dLJW4gz2 wxn79WaYCeHWwcI3m6ftC+FgowBJHirAjl+V8= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=zGkdqUIkKGQqN0a6h29Zpa4d2dmaNMHREhPRi+79EAU=; b=QlzJj8lqDmB+b51iNwIBho1IKrY1BFwaS2fnCwDchowJjemv0Fv8zF6aqgQCUYZecq YXF/Ba9yAWuH8K1S/m0c7+pTu61e4/eYaRZPnXWc7HK+PN1ziQ1Xy4OavKLof0QzB7lq pw+zrxEf99XsZlLu+J+59w7GsutHqImwTzwB2Y7d8stIzSm+iPUVPO5vAwDO2ysPnFFY UrqcG6Sv+2AQ0TOIAJr0EiFsaChMqe+a7Qe516K/15Dr9d2B0x5I1aqmBntWzHRAsp7R OWSB55Z9vdvBmpfsfPOjOHKAMt472bfLTc2Th8cH6imwPjfNXSAotFf9VUJIcxA3Py1s Isjg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531Vxonpg51MEhxoFCL3ab7P1Z4sdOPwLuUKTkEPkXEqk86Xq665 ksA6Qcn0pxA0Y9QKqHAx/126QoV2Of1xyMS5uTWYs/SE5arJ12acQOY= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxNQrk0QCL+k/iq2hDuq3khdGa7Qi64V6LzIpQ0D4rmZR0206utrKEk4hHrkSjyON2tazJVUlb0kHUe1nr/yQo= X-Received: by 2002:a9d:d4f:: with SMTP id 73mr17269171oti.170.1606755303465; Mon, 30 Nov 2020 08:55:03 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <8b580c46-ecfb-9383-ed43-08108b3ee7bf@tllds.com> <20201130163753.GB18187@mcvoy.com> In-Reply-To: <20201130163753.GB18187@mcvoy.com> From: Clem Cole Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2020 11:54:37 -0500 Message-ID: To: Larry McVoy Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000001ab2bf05b555df41" Subject: Re: [TUHS] The UNIX Command Language (1976) X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: TUHS main list Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" --0000000000001ab2bf05b555df41 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Mon, Nov 30, 2020 at 11:37 AM Larry McVoy wrote: > So Clem, the fact that troff lost and LaTex won is a direct result of > that walled garden that was the early days of Unix. Indeed > Unless you had a Unix license, no troff for you! yes ... but ... even UNIX binary folks had troff licenses and many/most at ditroff licenses. I know Masscomp just ate $5 per CPU and included it because we did not want to mess with the older version. If you were an academic, it was free so most research academics had either the source or at least a binary on their workstations. This did not become an issue until the 386, but by that time Clark had written what would be groff. I think your observation is correct, but in practice, I don't think that was what it was. I think the academics went LaTex and that had more to do with it. LaTex was closer to Scribe for the PDP-10s and Vaxen, which had a short head lead on all them until it went walled garden when CMU sold the rights (and even its author - Brian Ried) could not use it at a Stanford. So your are right, Wall Garden certainly impacted the result, but I think it was more preference in this case. > Which is a huge bummer, I'm a huge > troff fan (especially pic, but all of the preprocessors let you see the > output in your head). Ditto to both. > I wish we lived in a troff world but we don't > Yep > and that is a direct result of haves (license holders) and have nots > (the other 99.999999% of the world). > Maybe -- I think the PC and Word was the real kiss of death, which I find even more troubling. > > It's not the result we would like but it is what it is. > +1 --0000000000001ab2bf05b555df41 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Mon, Nov 30, 2020 at 11:3= 7 AM Larry McVoy <lm@mcvoy.com> w= rote:
So Clem, t= he fact that troff lost and LaTex won is a direct result of
that walled garden that was the early days of Unix.=C2=A0
=
Indeed


=C2=A0
Unless you had a Unix license,= no troff for you!=C2=A0
yes ...=C2=A0but .= .. even UNIX binary folks had troff licenses and many/mos= t at ditroff licenses.=C2=A0 I know Masscomp just ate $5 per CPU and includ= ed it because we did not want to mess with the older version.=C2=A0 If = you were an academic, it was free so most research academics had either the= source or at least a binary on their workstations.
This did not become an issue until the 386, but by = that=C2=A0time Clark had written what would be groff.=C2=A0

I think your observation is correct, but in= practice, I don't think that was what it was.=C2=A0
<= span class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri= f">
I think the academics went LaTex and that had = more to do with it.=C2=A0 =C2=A0LaTex was closer to Scribe for the PDP-10s = and Vaxen, which had a short head lead on all them until it went walled gar= den when CMU sold the rights (and even its author - Brian Ried) could not u= se it at a Stanford.

So yo= ur are right, Wall Garden certainly impacted the result, but I think it was= more preference in this case.=C2=A0 =C2=A0

=C2=A0
Which is a h= uge bummer, I'm a huge
troff fan (especially pic, but all of the preprocessors let you see the
output in your head).=C2=A0
Ditto to both.

=C2=A0
I wi= sh we lived in a troff world but we don't
Yep
=C2=A0
and that is a direct result of haves (license holders) and have nots
(the other 99.999999% of the world).
Maybe -- I th= ink the PC and Word was the real kiss of death, which I find even more trou= bling.=C2=A0

It's not the result we would like but it is what it is.
+1
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