From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.1 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU,HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,HTML_MESSAGE, MAILING_LIST_MULTI,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [45.79.103.53]) by inbox.vuxu.org (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id 15802f6f for ; Mon, 31 Dec 2018 14:56:37 +0000 (UTC) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 1F88BAF365; Tue, 1 Jan 2019 00:56:36 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8ED4AF363; Tue, 1 Jan 2019 00:56:03 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=pass (1024-bit key; unprotected) header.d=ccc.com header.i=@ccc.com header.b="BETmH4Pt"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 42862AF363; Tue, 1 Jan 2019 00:56:01 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-wm1-f48.google.com (mail-wm1-f48.google.com [209.85.128.48]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 448B194140 for ; Tue, 1 Jan 2019 00:56:00 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-wm1-f48.google.com with SMTP id r24so30094588wmh.0 for ; Mon, 31 Dec 2018 06:56:00 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ccc.com; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=YYjySjGcdM8qN9i56s5isDJB9hHHJKGKn+6VjOUiy1U=; b=BETmH4PtzfURrq4x29UpCuRUM7ZwH1RM8lNYmXRc9Kfi+BqDoY2CXUOwm3VD3mcgCj IQN4jtXf2ApruAGgPKe+0f+6Qg+OaAmDMqMct1UdKzYnkuoJU3Y5ICFb/mTF9iNu8904 5I9iX37m2TWgrh77vTeh+gLbbIOMzVy2wwW7g= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=YYjySjGcdM8qN9i56s5isDJB9hHHJKGKn+6VjOUiy1U=; b=cdQquIo2ZlO6eY63GcpPG4xrcpv0C0f+0VUDsbolgMbHlLgZZ5H/knWPcUIKyNs8Px VbRbchenrJrhAhm6ox/J367jw5qRncrA4cUifzFNtUj+PA6WFF0MzVVlNfZtJlQzR/p1 ZZ6eKYKLw/wGk2anbGY9RANnMFUXxWaMSkR+1WpVaAVKM+y4rY4xJWYLjY9wLAg197So +t/9q9WJyUiuSx5Yq/tkn4XRhdNZKzoStW3Rrf/a9kIzMJJpP9ZtpZi9Ybv6k099xXaA jhusFusBc75jdgX38o1GOf9Y/tuLa8WefaxSASeJ4+yAqv6izY9Sl3+atKWUY5Ihhot8 qYOw== X-Gm-Message-State: AA+aEWZlAplX+junJMBQZzgulXCYNOV4dNTs+AwoEAETfKnlJRL5m/yE UJ+VFGfch0Pts7dEPsVAW8npt3mqT6BMx36ORAk7Ng== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ALg8bN7YcghEzRnF76LEn0+b48sGfDydjLs52wAGj4/vUqfAldHDKI73+lQOxyJp8BwL5TOCkRPhAI10pxEccrug3tA= X-Received: by 2002:a1c:a895:: with SMTP id r143mr29790679wme.95.1546268158347; Mon, 31 Dec 2018 06:55:58 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <7AEB778A-EBC9-4A89-8E3B-A771FF5FC9B3@ccc.com> In-Reply-To: From: Clem Cole Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2018 09:55:31 -0500 Message-ID: To: Will Senn Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000004e68e0057e529cf4" Subject: Re: [TUHS] Upgrading from 11/40 to 11/45 in Unix v6 X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" --0000000000004e68e0057e529cf4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, Dec 30, 2018 at 10:31 PM Will Senn wrote: > > Do you know of some commonly used at the time v6 programs that needed tha= t > much space? > Besides everything that Noel pointed to you too, look at 1BSD - the pascal system needs to be seperate I/D for sure. I believe ex is linked seperate I/D. The C compiler itself can be, the reason to do that it allow the tables to be larger, so you don't run into errors where you run out of space. My experience from the old days, was that once you had seperate I/D, we tended to link most programs that way if we could, as we slowly deprecated the 11/40 class systems. The original Tek Labs machine was an 11/60 (which is a 40 class), and was quickly replaced with an 11/70. The 60 is what I used for the original Able Enable work that Noel referenced, so it have 4M in it for a short period (we borrowed the memory for the development). But within 2 years we had a 11/44 to replace the 11/60, which was seperate I/D system. > > > > After you are booted, a 45 class machine will run 40 class binaries > unchanged. 40 class machines can not run a.outs that are seperate I/D. > > Good to know. > > I read about this in =E2=80=99Setting up Unix Sixth Edition=E2=80=9D and = I see the source > comments. It looks pretty straightforward to configure the system for > separate I/D. Is there any material difference between doing it at instal= l > time vs having run on 11/40 for a while and moving the disk over to the > 11/45 later? > Making a system work on both could be done, but it chews up precious address space in code that will not be executed. Remember - what seems 'natural' for the modern user of cramming everything into a single binary, or keeping lots of copies of things, was not done. You lack address space, main memory or disk space. > > On a related note, how difficult is it to copy the system from rk to hp? = I > know I can rebuild, but I=E2=80=99m sure there=E2=80=99s a quicker/easier= method... > Easiest method is probably grabing the v6tar binary that you described how to make in your v6 for sim6 directionions, then use and dual tar programs***. Other wise, find(1) is your friend. That said, PWD (1.0) was v6 based, so there is a version of cpio on the spencer_pwb.tar.gz tape. That should work. Clem *** Note to Warren. It might be a wise to put copies of v6tar (both seperate I/D and not) binaries and maybe cpio(v6) on the TUHS we site in the V6 directory; maybe, a 'collected_tools' directory. Noel's tools would probably make sense to add there also. I bet people that are downloading and playing might find them helpful. --0000000000004e68e0057e529cf4 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Sun, Dec 30, 2018 at 10:31 PM Will Se= nn <will.senn@gmail.com> w= rote:

Do you= know of some commonly used at the time v6 programs that needed that much s= pace?
Besides everything that Noel pointed to you t= oo, look at 1BSD - the pascal system needs to be seperate I/D for sure.=C2= =A0 =C2=A0I believe ex is linked seperate I/D.=C2=A0 =C2=A0The C compiler i= tself can be, the reason to do that it allow the tables to be larger, so yo= u don't run into errors where you run out of space.

<= div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif= ">My experience from the old days, was that once you had seperate I/D, we t= ended to link most programs that way if we could, as we slowly deprecated t= he 11/40 class systems.=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The original Tek Labs machine was an 1= 1/60 (which is a 40 class), and was quickly replaced with an 11/70.=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0The 60 is what I used for the original Able Enable work that N= oel referenced, so it have 4M in it for a short period (we borrowed the mem= ory for the development).

But within 2 years we had a = 11/44 to replace the 11/60, which was seperate I/D system.

<= div>=C2=A0


> After you are booted, a 45 class machine will run 40 class binaries un= changed.=C2=A0 40 class machines can not run a.outs that are seperate I/D.<= br>
Good to know.

I read about this in =E2=80=99Setting up Unix Sixth Edition=E2=80=9D and I = see the source comments. It looks pretty straightforward to configure the s= ystem for separate I/D. Is there any material difference between doing it a= t install time vs having run on 11/40 for a while and moving the disk over = to the 11/45 later?
Making a system work on both co= uld be done, but it chews up precious address space in code that will not b= e executed.=C2=A0 =C2=A0

Remember - what seems 'na= tural' for the modern user of cramming everything into a single binary,= or keeping lots of copies of things, was not done.=C2=A0 You lack address = space, main memory or disk space.

=C2=A0

On a related note, how difficult is it to copy the system from rk to hp? I = know I can rebuild, but I=E2=80=99m sure there=E2=80=99s a quicker/easier m= ethod...
Easiest method is probably grabing the v6t= ar binary that you described how to make in your v6 for sim6 directionions,= then use=C2=A0 and dual tar programs***.=C2=A0 Other wise, find(1) is your= friend.=C2=A0 That said, PWD (1.0) was v6 based, so there is a version of = cpio on the spencer_pwb.tar.gz=C2=A0 tape.=C2=A0 =C2=A0That should work.

Clem

*** Note to Warren.=C2= =A0 It might be a wise to put copies of v6tar (both seperate I/D and not) b= inaries and maybe cpio(v6) on the TUHS we site in the V6 directory; maybe, = a 'collected_tools' directory.=C2=A0 Noel's tools would probabl= y make sense to add there also.=C2=A0 I bet people that are downloading and= playing might find them helpful.
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