From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.6 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [45.79.103.53]) by inbox.vuxu.org (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id ce9ed3b2 for ; Fri, 13 Sep 2019 21:46:38 +0000 (UTC) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id CBD679BA22; Sat, 14 Sep 2019 07:46:37 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E80E9B9B5; Sat, 14 Sep 2019 07:46:21 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=fail reason="signature verification failed" (1024-bit key; unprotected) header.d=ccc.com header.i=@ccc.com header.b="a/AqO4NX"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 0F38F9B9B5; Sat, 14 Sep 2019 07:46:20 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-wm1-f43.google.com (mail-wm1-f43.google.com [209.85.128.43]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CBD329B9A9 for ; Sat, 14 Sep 2019 07:46:18 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-wm1-f43.google.com with SMTP id n10so4227003wmj.0 for ; Fri, 13 Sep 2019 14:46:18 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ccc.com; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=NveOjKyXE2GmKmjZGpkNYS0lrkr1aKvB0En90L1A5N8=; b=a/AqO4NX3EuIiE5mCAA9snkGtGfREcftzHmYF5WhwKkCXQs2QPGxY2UHmOPP/O97zr tjg1u4qGjhZGuEMK4zE7rap2jLyAY6nHpjXxtQUEZCHK4BOO/6LijwHY+Kp/2rofXfe7 VxNJ3lyRV0JYcasSkhUPivQD8cz7iX14vstTg= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=NveOjKyXE2GmKmjZGpkNYS0lrkr1aKvB0En90L1A5N8=; b=Ui9DHykIJD8c0iZWR91SKBnhWIWSvoXVeT4fYCPbYSvXpKjpQXQTI7QxFSulZnqC6w O/q9jhDKilBMEsyO+Z9//yJo54Yhgu8vbXOBRof7a3YuGgWUIOlBC23QY+4H0lpL/bMM o/Vl99Kujb59Tx0GOaQZIUm1G9n0eC29hriQxHkJfbQdit13AmwFj175c7i4RsvAPE6t BSWTUeAEnE3zo693O9cNDQ2hlqTq11qkRirC4ZvHtTbZaI/oOIRDFQe4koqgmgOb/L2B uVaf9+/VFLp5r9ZtyyRmXFNALCV3IuYT6gLQ7VMl3El+f0vJLVsDr6Ww3AQcrWDFIfbN tdPg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWjLUJr2hqHziFS2WQueNyfr+/WHgvEmm9ujWOAwBAV9Z1X2QsH 3Dlj+ttEBv5X7U09XQvjrizHXdeFfDuJiQJZ9GHRWg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxL1Zc0b1OifMBrvltrUglUYAOohuK9JjSVGJd1OzwA+b66fkj+62bVX1GE5SJoL780RyYZf0Zi/lJYt5Hp8r4= X-Received: by 2002:a1c:2d85:: with SMTP id t127mr5271953wmt.81.1568411177326; Fri, 13 Sep 2019 14:46:17 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <201909132024.x8DKObEP013266@darkstar.fourwinds.com> <463d5cc4-9bef-9ac3-a680-a5161d664dc1@aueb.gr> In-Reply-To: <463d5cc4-9bef-9ac3-a680-a5161d664dc1@aueb.gr> From: Clem Cole Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2019 17:45:51 -0400 Message-ID: To: Diomidis Spinellis Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000162dc30592762f1d" Subject: Re: [TUHS] My EuroBSDcon talk (preview for commentary) X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" --000000000000162dc30592762f1d Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Awesome -- great way to figure it out, although I'm not sure 3rd edition was nroff, I think it might have been roff. I think a smart test is to check to see if those sources used a macro package or not. If not macro package, I think that tells us that the likely formatting program was roff. It does leave us an interesting question, when did the original roff(1) show up and when did nroff(1). The original, roff(1), was early, and of course not until after the original PDP-11/20 port. But was it as early as first edition? roff was the first formatting program. nroff replaced it later on, although roff lived through the 6th edition (I do not believe it is on the v7 tape). I was under the impression that the order is this ... roff was written for either v1 or v2 in 1970 or 71; I thought originally by Ken to be similar to the runoff that ran on the GE systems. At some point the team recieved the /C/A/T and Joseph Ossanna wrote a new program to support it, *a.k.a. *troff, that was similar to roff but troff was not a superset of the original program. nroff was then written after troff came into being to parrot the behavior of troff using an ASR-37; but I do not know who was the author (it might have been Ossanna). But it was a third program, that used the same macro packages as troff that started to appear for Ossanna's program and the input language was changed so that a document author could know what was the output target. As I said, nroff and roff were in the v6 distribution, although not troff if I remember it correctly; although troff was part of PWB 1.0. The inclusion of both roff and nroff was because some of the Unix papers/documentation used roff for formatting, not the troff/nroff input syntax. That said, the PWB man pages have the roff manpage, as well as a single man page for both nroff and troff with sections later that say 'nroff only' and 'troff only.' Also I do not remember having any macro packages for roff(1), but their might have been some, although I just checked the PWB man page and it does not list a .so command to read in macros, there is no mention of a macro switch on the command line and in the files section the only external file it used was the hyphenation tables. Finally, Ossanna tragically died and some time later the new APS/5 was obtained. So, bwk wrote a new program yet, that used post processors and some front end tables, to allow the 'typesetter' portion to work regardless of the output device (*i.e.* device independent troff or ditroff). With the idea only a single program would be needed to be supported. By this point nothing in the Research 'releases' required the original roff program and since it was in assembler, I believe that it was dropped from all further support. Clem On Fri, Sep 13, 2019 at 4:53 PM Diomidis Spinellis wrote: > The Fourth Edition manual was typeset in troff: > https://dspinellis.github.io/unix-v4man/v4man.pdf > https://github.com/dspinellis/unix-v4man > > The Third Edition was nroff: > https://dspinellis.github.io/unix-v3man/v3man.pdf > https://github.com/dspinellis/unix-v3man > > On 13-Sep-19 23:43, Clem Cole wrote: > > Jon - Good catch and that is a good reminder. > > Warner - You need to add troff and the C/A/T to your timeline. They > > were too important. What I don't remember, although Doug or Steve > > might, was the original troff 4th or 5th edition? bwk did > > ditroff, later with the addition of the APS5. > --000000000000162dc30592762f1d Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Awesome -- great way to figure=C2=A0it out, although I&= #39;m not sure 3rd edition was nroff, I think it might have been roff.=C2= =A0 I think a smart test is to check to see if those=C2=A0sources used a ma= cro package or not.=C2=A0 If not macro package, I think that tells us that = the likely formatting program was roff.

It does leave = us an interesting question, when did the original roff(1) show up and when = did nroff(1).=C2=A0 The original, roff(1), was early, and of course not unt= il after the original PDP-11/20 port.=C2=A0 But was it as early as first ed= ition?=C2=A0 =C2=A0roff was the first formatting program.=C2=A0 nroff repla= ced it later on, although roff lived through the 6th edition (I do not beli= eve it is on the v7 tape).

I was under the impression = that the order is this ... roff was written for either v1 or v2 in 1970 or = 71; I thought originally by Ken to be similar to the runoff that ran on the= GE systems.=C2=A0 =C2=A0At some point the team recieved the /C/A/T and Jos= eph=C2=A0Ossanna wrote a new program to support it, a.k.a. troff, th= at was similar to roff but troff was not a superset of the original program= .=C2=A0 nroff was then written after troff came into being to parrot the be= havior of troff using an ASR-37; but I do not know who was the author (it m= ight=C2=A0have been Ossanna).=C2=A0 But it was a third program, that used t= he same macro packages as troff that started to appear for Ossanna's pr= ogram and the input language was changed so that a document author could kn= ow what was the output target.=C2=A0=C2=A0

As I said, = nroff and roff were in the v6 distribution, although not troff if I remembe= r it correctly; although troff was part of PWB 1.0.=C2=A0 The inclusion of= both roff and nroff was because some of the Unix papers/documentation used= roff for formatting, not the troff/nroff input syntax.=C2=A0That said, the= PWB man pages have the roff manpage, as well as a single man page for both= nroff and troff with sections later that say 'nroff only' and '= ;troff only.'

Also I do not remem= ber having any macro packages for roff(1), but their might have been some, = although I just checked the PWB man page and it does not list a .so command to read in macros, there is no mention of a macr= o switch on the command line and in the files section the only external fil= e it used was the hyphenation tables.

Finally= , Ossanna=C2=A0tragically=C2=A0died and some time later the new APS/5 was o= btained. So, bwk wrote a new program yet, that used post processors and som= e front end tables, to allow the 'typesetter' portion to work regar= dless of the output device (i.e.=C2=A0device independent troff or di= troff).=C2=A0 =C2=A0With the idea only a single program would be needed to = be supported.=C2=A0 By this point nothing in the Research 'releases'= ; required the original roff program and since it was in assembler, I belie= ve that it was dropped from all further support.

Clem<= /div>



On Fri, Sep 13, 2019 at 4:53 PM Diomidis Spi= nellis <dds@aueb.gr> wrote:
The Fourth Edition man= ual was typeset in troff:
https://dspinellis.github.io/unix-v4man/v4man.pdf
https://github.com/dspinellis/unix-v4man

The Third Edition was nroff:
https://dspinellis.github.io/unix-v3man/v3man.pdf
https://github.com/dspinellis/unix-v3man

On 13-Sep-19 23:43, Clem Cole wrote:
> Jon - Good catch and that is a good reminder.
> Warner - You need to add troff and the C/A/T to your timeline.=C2=A0 T= hey
> were too important.=C2=A0 =C2=A0What I don't remember, although Do= ug or Steve
> might, was the original=C2=A0troff 4th or 5th edition?=C2=A0 bwk did <= br> > ditroff,=C2=A0later with the addition of the APS5.
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