From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.6 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [50.116.15.146]) by inbox.vuxu.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7FAFE23F8B for ; Wed, 19 Jun 2024 18:45:43 +0200 (CEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15FB943A16; Thu, 20 Jun 2024 02:45:39 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-ua1-x92b.google.com (mail-ua1-x92b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::92b]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7B3F343A14 for ; Thu, 20 Jun 2024 02:45:30 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-ua1-x92b.google.com with SMTP id a1e0cc1a2514c-80d64c817a7so1843241.3 for ; Wed, 19 Jun 2024 09:45:30 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ccc.com; s=google; t=1718815529; x=1719420329; darn=tuhs.org; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=xK6BLI/5rHbHlCOkfzKENeKB0TGSMvx7DpgYs1WlN8s=; b=I9Jk7tIUNZSn9HkVFmM3gO0ksc3cOqLG0PeDgFJSc3zuBcpHp+TNeodYMZfhWsXGhh 2nWisST9vKtblTl0hjDJzcQlgdA4ugJCIpVt8nJhmg41uJKMMwUTKu261TCuRs0JCo4W uHClLRQXTTM1AQ+hMxgP1MYKB/3mlsKKpJrQE= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1718815529; x=1719420329; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=xK6BLI/5rHbHlCOkfzKENeKB0TGSMvx7DpgYs1WlN8s=; b=Z6SWK5zk/wXDyWUx7iwS+HJZz+EizSZQaAA7jsaxnxIVh1sbrbzn3UIFpk9ETecu9M rVqq7fJSNVGklYRRbEKYUpsX5qWEIuQBU5sggPoDFPvYlQVu1TNsWhe+halxyjouz7FE 6oR06cN/LHE/evrS0HQmwdYGhZj1Dc6etSGbXCGdqeww2CtlYvjdW07tN/H43IuDFbym f8rbFazZ2OqgGZz9MT6ftLespjrhQde8uiHo8F7pApQxoMOv5yWFofnvafHoVKRYMvQT mijDz0FDXkpJeR5aydNF2eBrrCRDwlcxfYC4l3XVjKyvXfntfUWzJelrvItafYqAa4fv owWw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0Yx8l3Va+QI0Mopg/PAgIuvYomDC4exsgBVHG/9Zv65/LnVXgWwJ b2lUu9Y2I0piCdQuC03BivCrIP8VW/52RKb+her/6xORgGFJWDGSRQkOCaOIIvrSB3HTBD/yGEH hnOilJHzEqGA3mP4Q5WuvR+DI53h7AJDhxMBaTBsdpRtzhwSExw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IEalp7DRCBJ9aHcCEccPBJXvtK0yZ+HZTaHc8xlymuwaikQl12GNSOGBd3o7l6TVckByEHggWBl21M8w7y4bNU= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6102:c0d:b0:48f:1763:c389 with SMTP id ada2fe7eead31-48f1763c6e0mr2304203137.35.1718815529246; Wed, 19 Jun 2024 09:45:29 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <202406190655.45J6tkVP902384@freefriends.org> <1c8abcf6-5997-3c9e-7d08-b941b34089db@bitsavers.org> In-Reply-To: <1c8abcf6-5997-3c9e-7d08-b941b34089db@bitsavers.org> From: Clem Cole Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2024 12:44:53 -0400 Message-ID: To: Al Kossow Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000000e38c5061b40ed0c" Message-ID-Hash: EP6POZIV3IFTJDYW3CA6C3VQ4GEHSYUY X-Message-ID-Hash: EP6POZIV3IFTJDYW3CA6C3VQ4GEHSYUY X-MailFrom: clemc@ccc.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: tuhs@tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: Unix single-machine licensing (was Re: Re: ACM Software System Award to Andrew S. Tanenbaum for MINIX) List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: --0000000000000e38c5061b40ed0c Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Jun 19, 2024 at 12:00=E2=80=AFPM Al Kossow wrot= e: > On 6/19/24 8:47 AM, Clem Cole wrote: > > > That's how I remember Otis Wilson explaining it to us as > commercial licensees at a licensing meeting in the early 1980s. > > We had finally completed the PWB 3.0 license to replace the V7 > commercial license (AT&T would rename this System III - but we knew it as > PWB > > 3.) during the negociations Summit had already moved on to the next > version - PWB 4.0. IMO: Otis was not ready to start that process again. > > Is the really early history of Unix licensing documented anywhere? > Not to my knowledge -- I probably know much/most of it as I lived it as part of a couple of the negotiation teams. The work on reviving a Plexus P20 prompted me to put up the history of Onyx > and Plexus at > http://bitsavers.org/pdf/plexus/history and a long time ago someone who > worked at Fortune > told me we can all thank Onyx in 1980 for working out the single machine > licensing with AT&T > Hmm, I'm not sure =E2=80=94but I don't think it is wholly clear=E2=80=94alt= hough Onyx was early and certainly would have been a part. They were not the only firm that wanted redistribution rights. Numerous vendors asked for the V7 redistribution license, with HP (Fred Clegg), Microsoft (Bob Greenberg/Bill Gates), and Tektronix (me) being three, I am aware. It is quite possible Onyx signed the original V7 license first, but I know there was great unhappiness with the terms that AT&T initially set up. When the folks from AT&T Patents and Licensing (Al Arms at that point) talked to us individually, it was sort of "this is what we are offering" - mind you, this all started >>pre-Judge Green<< and the concept of negotiation was somewhat one-sided as AT&T was not allowed in the computer business. There was also a bit of gnashing of teeth as PWB 2.0 was not on the price list. At the time, Al's position was they could license the research, but since AT&T was not in the commercial computer business, anything done for the operation companies *(i.e.*, USG output) was not allowed to be discussed. The desire to redistribute UNIX (particularly on microprocessors) came up at one of the earlier Asilomar Microprocessor workshops (which just held its 50th in April, BTW). Prof Dennis Allison of Stanford was consulting for most of us at the time and recognized we had a common problem. He set up a meeting for the approx 10 firms, introduced us, and left us alone. Thus began the meetings at Ricky's Hyatt (of which I was a part). This all *eventually* begat the replacement license for what would be PWB 3.0. I've mentioned those meetings a few times in this forum. As I said, it was the only time I was ever in a small meeting with Gates. When we were discussing the price for binary copies, starting at $5K and getting down to $1K seemed reasonable for a $25K-$125K computer, which was most of our price points. Microsoft wanted to pay $25/copy. He said to the rest of us, "You guys don't get it. *The only thing that matters is volume*." --0000000000000e38c5061b40ed0c Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Wed, Jun 19, 2024 at 12:0= 0=E2=80=AFPM Al Kossow <aek@bitsave= rs.org> wrote:
On 6/19/24 8:47 AM, Clem Cole wrote:

> That's how I remember Otis Wilson explaining it to us as commercia= l=C2=A0licensees at a licensing meeting in the early 1980s.
> We had finally completed the PWB 3.0 license to replace the V7 commerc= ial=C2=A0license (AT&T would rename this System III - but we knew it as= PWB
> 3.) during the negociations=C2=A0 =C2=A0Summit had already moved on to= the next version - PWB 4.0.=C2=A0 IMO: Otis was not ready=C2=A0to start th= at process again.

Is the really early history of Unix licensing documented anywhere?
Not to my knowledge -- I probably know much/most of it as I live= d it as part of a couple of the negotiation teams.

The work on reviving a Plexus P20 prompted me to put up the history of Onyx= and Plexus at
http://bitsavers.org/pdf/plexus/history and a long time a= go someone who worked at Fortune
told me we can all thank Onyx in 1980 for working out the single machine li= censing with=C2=A0AT&T
Hmm, I'm= not sure =E2=80=94but I don't think it is wholly clear=E2=80=94althoug= h Onyx was early and certainly=C2=A0would have been a part.=C2=A0 They were not the only firm that wanted redistribution rights.=

Numerous vendors asked for the V7 redis= tribution license, with HP (Fred Clegg), Microsoft (Bob Greenberg/Bill Gate= s), and Tektronix (me) being three, I am aware. It is quite possible Onyx s= igned the original V7 license first, but I know there was great unhappiness= with the terms that AT&T initially set up. When the folks from AT&= T Patents and Licensing (Al Arms at that point) talked to us individually, = it was sort of "this is what we are offering"=C2=A0 - mind you, t= his all started >>pre-Judge=C2=A0Green<< and the concept of neg= otiation was somewhat=C2=A0one-sided as AT&T was not allowed in the com= puter business.

There was also a bit of gnashing of te= eth as PWB 2.0 was not on the price list.=C2=A0 At the time, Al's posit= ion was they could license the research, but since AT&T was not in the = commercial computer business, anything done for the operation companies = (i.e., USG output) was not allowed to be discussed.

<= div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif= ">The desire to redistribute UNIX (particularly on microprocessors) came up= at one of the earlier Asilomar Microprocessor workshops (which just held i= ts=C2=A050th in April, BTW).=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Prof Dennis Allison of Stanford w= as consulting for most of us at the time and recognized we had a common pro= blem.=C2=A0 He set up a meeting for the approx 10 firms, introduced us, and= left us alone.=C2=A0 Thus began the meetings at Ricky's Hyatt (of whic= h I was a part).=C2=A0 This all eventually begat the replacem= ent license for what would be PWB 3.0.=C2=A0 =C2=A0

I&= #39;ve mentioned those meetings a few times in this forum. As I said, it wa= s the only time I was ever in a small meeting with Gates. When we were disc= ussing the price for binary copies, starting at $5K and getting down to $1K= seemed reasonable for a $25K-$125K computer, which was most of our price p= oints.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Microsoft wanted to pay $25/copy.=C2=A0 =C2=A0He said to= the rest of us, "You guys don't get it.=C2=A0The only thing th= at matters is volume."

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