From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.1 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE, SPF_PASS autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 Received: (qmail 8608 invoked from network); 30 Mar 2020 19:32:29 -0000 Received-SPF: pass (minnie.tuhs.org: domain of minnie.tuhs.org designates 45.79.103.53 as permitted sender) receiver=inbox.vuxu.org; client-ip=45.79.103.53 envelope-from= Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (45.79.103.53) by inbox.vuxu.org with UTF8ESMTPZ; 30 Mar 2020 19:32:29 -0000 Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 17BAF9D717; Tue, 31 Mar 2020 05:32:27 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 949689D712; Tue, 31 Mar 2020 05:31:45 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=pass (1024-bit key; unprotected) header.d=ccc.com header.i=@ccc.com header.b="rG9E4I6K"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 2B2349D712; Tue, 31 Mar 2020 05:31:42 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-qv1-f43.google.com (mail-qv1-f43.google.com [209.85.219.43]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 92FFE9D711 for ; Tue, 31 Mar 2020 05:31:40 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-qv1-f43.google.com with SMTP id v38so9596253qvf.6 for ; Mon, 30 Mar 2020 12:31:40 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ccc.com; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=h56UOJ+RMjm8Vu7Nr6Md0MRlDIj/Kq6Nb5/drXzaTCk=; b=rG9E4I6K/UPyJdDd1xbyuP880Rw3+T6IFRn+fAK3GywkXmovWX7dAj4m+XXj1tdxie ne9ro0y3c9n2xV7sTt5xwR2Qq/g8kgT9pIwZSH81H5FIuYbd6L9vUY1JFYugNSfA03S+ /WwhOEx4+wVJJjgZ0fpFNZlWlAFSjhjxQYnJo= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=h56UOJ+RMjm8Vu7Nr6Md0MRlDIj/Kq6Nb5/drXzaTCk=; b=YAwodD50IClwtx7bt63D2Jr/wXxKxnfss39B9YPH4069oEC5JeM5EoS+BPzkVR27Kx G/FPzZcSUsjtrDgw8sKlLsPS1E0n2e9qexYS6abYUEjdlotRe8q0bLCQiP62tU8VmYUb rppTiWMVaXd24PStRXg0YBURFxgTorL96jd9m4/m/6IBDcVjno7qakwyFLolX9MikWqe UGmh8BVoxWdC31eRu6I4Pb2cppfYVZyf8yxcerLS5AXJIj7HBcYr4yjrJXCdnbxfHO1y PGGuIYCv5dP0ouc4YZUZkdqL5eVcPj/8PVYk+R+5Leg7XyrllZNkJ8DZOmNIX+1lQiO3 +XLg== X-Gm-Message-State: ANhLgQ1KC1YQR8qpvBr3NkQ1xE4XZaZk8TlIq+WesQRqtWNV7gLvch/m vDXtzECc4OYoUoEdSchXFUUbzxizUaVGZbBB68hUWQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ADFU+vs6ZdIXZBvsT8oywscdEu82g02Qj0cW2jUErARO1c7JgUuOLoODpoYAbKgZKpNoM/N8FNvS+gLoiHAl8JoVkMQ= X-Received: by 2002:ad4:57d3:: with SMTP id y19mr13585266qvx.42.1585596699439; Mon, 30 Mar 2020 12:31:39 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20C3B8BE-E371-4694-8A34-EEC6A5461FAD@planet.nl> <202003291404.02TE4dAI022916@freefriends.org> <2298456D-A786-40C2-9C68-26C99E2002E1@planet.nl> <6AE2011D-32EF-4E1E-A231-9DFAC683FE48@planet.nl> In-Reply-To: <6AE2011D-32EF-4E1E-A231-9DFAC683FE48@planet.nl> From: Clem Cole Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2020 15:31:13 -0400 Message-ID: To: Paul Ruizendaal Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000070a4405a217800c" Subject: Re: [TUHS] 8th Edition timeline X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: TUHS main list Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" --000000000000070a4405a217800c Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Mar 30, 2020 at 12:02 PM Paul Ruizendaal wrote: > Comments in line: > > > On 30 Mar 2020, at 15:26, Clem Cole wrote: > Your date of June '81 for the 4.1BSD release seems late, but I'll accept > it. 3BSD was 1979, and I thought 4BSD was a year later, with 4.1BSD a fe= w > months after 4BSD (few people actually got 4BSD) > > I am aware of that. =E2=80=9C20 years of Berkely Unix=E2=80=9D says Novem= ber 1980 for 4BSD > and June 1981 for 4.1BSD. From the SCCS log I=E2=80=99d say November 9th = and July > 1st respectively. Ok, that sounds right 6-7 months between them. That was the time of the 'FASTVAX' work and the fight with Stanford over if BSD or VMS was to be the official Arpa OS. I remember Joy was incredibly prolific during that time. From a user standpoint, 4BSD and 4.1BSD are really similar, but he was hacking the kernel. It seemed like a new change came out all the time. The CAD group (where I was) always wanted the fastest system, so there was pressure on me to follow him, but I was trying to make progress on the AP work (my thesis) so I was a little loath to take the churn. > > > As far as I can tell CSRG integrated the BBN stack with (almost) 4.1 in > April 1981 - most of that is in a separate tree, with a few #ifdef=E2=80= =99s in the > main tree. I'm pretty sure that was mostly Eric Cooper (ecc) IIRC. We had a tape directly from Gurwitz running in the CAD lab in Cory Hall, running on Xerox 3M Ethernet and because we needed it between our three 780s systems. We had ordered the 3C501's from 3COM and we were going to be the Beta for the Interlan board - which I wrote the original driver and gave it to Sam. I'm not sure when IngVAX arrived, Eric Schmidt had Ing70 downstairs (and that was the ArpaNet connect via a VDH up the hill to the IMP at LBL. We had been running BerkNET over serial lines. Ernie and Kim were the two 780s over in Evan's (the big pile of 750s and the C30 IMP were still in the future). > From SCCS it seems that implementation work on sockets started in Oct/Nov > 1981 and 4.1a was released in April or March 1982. That sounds about right. It was a bunch of wnj marathon hacking sessions. > From the partial coverage in SCCS I=E2=80=99d say there is no BBN code in= 4.1a > anymore. Mumble ... I sort of have a hard time with that. I knew and worked with both of them in my day and have heard both sides of the story. Joy had Gurwitz's code and was hacking it - that is just a fact. Claiming pure authorship is a tad extreme. For instance, Andy VanDam told me that the whole mbuf's stuff is something Rob originally wrote for a project for him at Brown when he was an undergrad. Rob brought it BBN and he used it for the OS-independent TCP (i.e. the HP3000 version) originally and it landed in the UNIX version. Joy hacked on it, but that's a data structure directly from Rob. On the other hand, Joy types open curly brace, close curly brace, and hacks in code the fastest of anyone I ever knew (someone, maybe Mary Ann Horton, once said he 'wrote code at 9600'). But if you look at it, its sometimes not pretty. It works and its usually fast, which is hard to argue with. > The socket API in that release was different from what ended being in 4.1= c > and 4.2, Definitely. I thought other hands besides Joy started to mess with it (like Sam) > and seems to have had some wider visibility in 2.9BSD and UniPlus System = V > - both of which used the 4.1a API (and probably code base). Yeah, Keith was taking things was Sam at pretty hectic pace trying to keep the 11's running. I would guess that took more of a 'good enough' attitude, they got the TCP stack in the limited address space and did not want to try much more > > > Yes, Summer 81 - Summer 82 must have been a vibrant year, with much > interaction between various Unix groups. It was a fun time to be apart of it all. > By the way, dmr was on the 4.2BSD steering group. Yes, I know. That's how I first got to know him. --000000000000070a4405a217800c Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On M= on, Mar 30, 2020 at 12:02 PM Paul Ruizendaal <pnr@planet.nl> wrote:
Commen= ts in line:
> On 30 Mar 2020, at 15:26, Clem Cole <clemc@ccc.com> wrote:
Your date of June '= ;81 for the 4.1BSD release seems late, but I'll accept it.=C2=A0 3BSD w= as 1979, and I thought 4BSD was a year later, with 4.1BSD a few months afte= r 4BSD (few people actually got 4BSD)
I am aware of that. =E2=80=9C20 years of Berkely Unix=E2=80=9D says Novembe= r 1980 for 4BSD and June 1981 for 4.1BSD. From the SCCS log I=E2=80=99d say= November 9th and July 1st respectively.
Ok, that sounds right 6-7 months between them.=C2=A0 =C2= =A0That was the time of the 'FASTVAX' work and the fight with Stanf= ord over if BSD or VMS was to be the official Arpa OS.=C2=A0 I remember Joy= was incredibly prolific during that time.=C2=A0 From a user standpoint, 4B= SD and 4.1BSD are really similar, but he was hacking the kernel.=C2=A0 It s= eemed like a new change came out all the time.=C2=A0 The CAD group (where I= was) always wanted the fastest system, so there was pressure on me to foll= ow him, but I was trying to make progress on the AP work (my thesis) so I w= as a little loath to take the churn.

=C2=A0


As far as I can tell CSRG integrated the BBN stack with (almost) 4.1 in Apr= il 1981 - most of that is in a separate tree, with a few #ifdef=E2=80=99s i= n the main tree.
I'= m pretty sure that was mostly Eric Cooper (ecc) IIRC.=C2=A0 We had a tape d= irectly from Gurwitz running in the CAD lab in Cory Hall, running on Xerox = 3M Ethernet and because we needed it between our three 780s systems. We had= ordered the 3C501's from 3COM and we were going to be the Beta for the= Interlan board - which I wrote the original driver and gave it to Sam.=C2= =A0 I'm not sure when IngVAX arrived, Eric Schmidt had Ing70 downstairs= (and that was the ArpaNet connect via a VDH up the hill to the IMP at LBL.= =C2=A0 We had been running BerkNET over serial lines.=C2=A0 Ernie and Kim w= ere the two 780s over in Evan's (the big pile of 750s and the C30 IMP w= ere still in the future).


=C2=A0<= /div>
From SCCS it seems that implementation work on sockets started in Oct/N= ov 1981 and 4.1a was released in April or March 1982.
<= div>
That sounds about right.=C2=A0 It was a bunc= h of wnj marathon hacking sessions.

=C2=A0
=
F= rom the partial coverage in SCCS I=E2=80=99d say there is no BBN code in 4.= 1a anymore.
Mumble ...= =C2=A0 =C2=A0I sort of have a hard time with that.=C2=A0 I knew and worked = with both of them in my day and have heard both sides of the story. Joy had= Gurwitz's code and was hacking it - that is just a fact.=C2=A0 Claimin= g pure authorship is a tad extreme.=C2=A0 =C2=A0For instance, Andy VanDam t= old me that the whole mbuf's stuff is something Rob originally wrote fo= r a project for him at Brown=C2=A0when he was an undergrad.=C2=A0 Rob broug= ht it BBN and he used it for the OS-independent TCP (i.e. the HP3000 versio= n) originally and it landed in the UNIX version.=C2=A0 Joy hacked on it, bu= t that's a data structure directly from Rob.=C2=A0 =C2=A0 On the other = hand, Joy types open curly brace, close curly brace,=C2=A0and hacks in code= the fastest of anyone I ever knew (someone, maybe Mary Ann Horton, once sa= id he 'wrote code at 9600').=C2=A0 But if you look at it, its somet= imes not pretty.=C2=A0 It works and its usually fast, which is hard to argu= e with.


=C2=A0
The socket API= in that release was different from what ended being in 4.1c and 4.2,
Definitely.=C2=A0 =C2=A0I tho= ught other hands besides Joy started to mess with it (like Sam)
=C2=A0
and seems to have had some wider visibility in = 2.9BSD and UniPlus System V - both of which used the 4.1a API (and probably= code base).
Yeah, Keith was = taking things was Sam at pretty hectic pace trying to keep the 11's run= ning.=C2=A0 =C2=A0 I would guess that took more of a 'good enough' = attitude, they got the TCP stack in the limited address space and did not w= ant to try much more


Yes, Summer 81 - Summer 82 must have been a vib= rant year, with much interaction between various Unix groups.
It was a fun time to be apart of it = all.

=C2=A0
By the way, dmr was on the 4.2BS= D steering group.
Yes, = I know.=C2=A0 =C2=A0That's how I first got to know him.=C2=A0
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