From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 13701 invoked from network); 31 Dec 2022 19:10:04 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (50.116.15.146) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 31 Dec 2022 19:10:04 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99E27423C5; Sun, 1 Jan 2023 05:09:41 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-vs1-f50.google.com (mail-vs1-f50.google.com [209.85.217.50]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1629F423C2 for ; Sun, 1 Jan 2023 05:09:37 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-vs1-f50.google.com with SMTP id i188so24367542vsi.8 for ; Sat, 31 Dec 2022 11:09:37 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ccc.com; s=google; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=gWXpxAzkB9V8cYFLZqKgVBNT9sV74GJGmxBIQcuWkp4=; b=mv0VxktcJ0mZV+L4rj27+KwdWffPhfWPBj4MfuYL8bUaRwn1DnkeQ5f0OOXF4ZU6Ap nH6IzqH7a4j3vQjdt/y0k9a7dXQeI44tJeYV/5x8po8XBgGRpHRGKdcw65X2cs4Jx5RP RoMPNj/BU+29Ka7ZO16w1Fz0ETpJrHyTBG7cw= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=gWXpxAzkB9V8cYFLZqKgVBNT9sV74GJGmxBIQcuWkp4=; b=PEkRw0jZUhcWQU1D56QIjpXP4xBgIPx7OKSvJyRR3pS/FxPPLDbBPFS62t3joP4nTB YrFhlrKPhBgBo5d6HTVNwFHbvzQsh6k/4vV6//v81MrUjicXhJby+UxyqPgCbwBV4+Z3 5hcL2M0NzmMUmSTLliJnX6lpVjjSmpedGOsh63MVFWMiU3BJyScExuwzmOHulX7KtaEZ pJo+goVQP18MkDyPg346cXTr42Ud9OGKMaH4I+oqmzoiPDx7ae8vGG6MLXT0jmYq/zRL sRB4ulLI8FFSSr1kimt63epLmZS2k58gwVDOO8sflQg62/kGeEhYoE+13VwQfXC9NNYp 0TCA== X-Gm-Message-State: AFqh2kqNfaSfcRxipXm2i7KHLqYprdL9SmNGBlC5bIpmAp1BUaDV4gK9 /5yN/IBXBNot7iIqjn09weuldhLLFe3Y2DzRzxkHiQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AMrXdXuMHP5ElDVpNOSY6mS+ji/tWOtm2oFXr/RZ9Nv87RkD3Eu3m4PV21q71VJSMdIgpsUuwSfUspVo0srkC6/a/Fg= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6102:2227:b0:3b5:25d7:ecf6 with SMTP id d7-20020a056102222700b003b525d7ecf6mr3238269vsb.52.1672513716072; Sat, 31 Dec 2022 11:08:36 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <335F89A9-30C2-41A2-8E84-C2D761746634@planet.nl> In-Reply-To: From: Clem Cole Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2022 14:08:10 -0500 Message-ID: To: Dan Cross Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000edcf4b05f12471e8" Message-ID-Hash: M2FU57GEJYQI6O5ETBESYL5T6X7V5DTG X-Message-ID-Hash: M2FU57GEJYQI6O5ETBESYL5T6X7V5DTG X-MailFrom: clemc@ccc.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; header-match-tuhs.tuhs.org-0; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: Paul Ruizendaal , The Eunuchs Hysterical Society X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: Porting the SysIII kernel: boot, config & device drivers List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: --000000000000edcf4b05f12471e8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Sat, Dec 31, 2022 at 10:02 AM Dan Cross wrote: > I think that BSD supported autoconfiguration on the VAX well before > OpenBoot; the OpenBSD man page says it dates from 4.1 (1981) and was > revamped in 4.4. > I can verify that. The PDP-10's had it first, then VMS. During the VMS vs UNIX war at ARPA, when Joy did the FASTVAX work, autoconfig first appeared. Sam rewrote it with what eventually became 4.2 with his configuration system. At the point of the vendors like, DEC, DG, HP, then Masscomp, Apollo and Sun all had their own boot systems. For Vaxen that was ok, as the busses were DEC defined, but folks like Xylogics, Emulex and such wanted to sell boards for the Multibus, VME as well as Unibus or proprietary busses. So boot driver were something they had to offer in source, at least to their OEM's [actually Masscomp (Paul Cantrell) wrote Xylogic's reference code for a number of them and licenses them back, which Sun used later as it turns out]. Larry and Rob G can comment on the OpenBoot stuff what was birthed later on as a way to solve some of that problem. IIRC, the SPARC may have been a partial driver for that as offering boot rooms and driver for 68000 or 8086 based boards was not going to be helpful for that market. > > SBI was/is an attempt to define a common interface to different > devices using RISC-V CPUs, but it's growing wildly and tending more > towards UEFI+ACPI than something like OpenBoot, which was much > simpler. > UEFI+ACPI got/gets a bad rep because of the original IBM BIOS implementations. > > In general, the idea of a BIOS isn't terrible: provide an interface > that decouples the OS and hardware. Exactly - the idea is actually a good one. But the problem was the BIOS designed/implemented by HW people, but OS folks. Things like concurrency minimum use of the CPU was not in the higher order bits. > But in practice, no one has come > up with a particularly good set of interfaces yet. Ironically, > BSD-style autoconfig might have been the best yet. > ??Maybe because it was OS types who knew what the OS needed to discover/report/deliver back from the HW. --000000000000edcf4b05f12471e8 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Sat, Dec 31, 2022 at 10:0= 2 AM Dan Cross <crossd@gmail.com= > wrote:
I think that BSD supported autoconfig= uration on the VAX well before
OpenBoot; the OpenBSD man page says it dates from 4.1 (1981) and was
revamped in 4.4.
I can verify th= at. =C2=A0 The PDP-10's had it first, then VMS.=C2=A0 During the VMS vs= UNIX war at ARPA, when Joy did the FASTVAX work, autoconfig
=C2=A0first appeared. =C2=A0 Sam rewrote it with w= hat eventually became 4.2 with his configuration system.

At the poi= nt of the vendors=C2=A0like, DEC, DG, HP, then Masscomp, Apollo and Sun all= had their own boot systems.=C2=A0 For Vaxen that was ok, as the busses wer= e DEC defined, but folks like Xylogics, Emulex and such wanted to sell boar= ds for the Multibus, VME as well as Unibus or proprietary busses. =C2=A0 So= boot driver were something they had to offer in source, at least to their = OEM's [actually Masscomp (Paul Cantrell) wrote Xylogic's reference = code for a number of them and licenses them back, which Sun used later as i= t turns out].

Larry and Rob G can comment on the OpenBoot stuff wha= t was birthed later on as a way to solve some of that problem.=C2=A0 IIRC, = the SPARC may have been a partial driver for that as offering boot rooms an= d driver for 68000 or 8086 based boards was not going to be helpful for tha= t market. =C2=A0=C2=A0

SBI was/is an attempt to define a common interface to different
devices using RISC-V CPUs, but it's growing wildly and tending more
towards UEFI+ACPI than something like OpenBoot, which was much
simpler.
UEFI+ACPI got/gets a ba= d rep because of the=C2=A0original IBM BIOS implementations.=C2=A0

In general, the idea of a BIOS isn't terrible: provide an interface
that decouples the OS and hardware.
Exactly - the idea is actually a good one.=C2=A0 But the problem was = the BIOS designed/implemented by HW people, but OS folks.=C2=A0 Things like= concurrency minimum=C2=A0use of the CPU was not in the higher order bits.<= /font>

=C2=A0
But in practice, no= one has come
up with a particularly good set of interfaces yet. Ironically,
BSD-style autoconfig might have been the best yet.
??Maybe because it was OS types who knew what the OS nee= ded to discover/report/deliver back from the HW.
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