From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.1 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU,HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,HTML_FONT_LOW_CONTRAST, HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [45.79.103.53]) by inbox.vuxu.org (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id e578e6f3 for ; Fri, 16 Nov 2018 22:25:47 +0000 (UTC) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 2EF4CA26FF; Sat, 17 Nov 2018 08:25:46 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A73CBA26D8; Sat, 17 Nov 2018 08:25:17 +1000 (AEST) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 38198A26D8; Sat, 17 Nov 2018 08:25:10 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-wm1-f44.google.com (mail-wm1-f44.google.com [209.85.128.44]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9897393FC6 for ; Sat, 17 Nov 2018 08:25:03 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-wm1-f44.google.com with SMTP id 124-v6so68545wmw.0 for ; Fri, 16 Nov 2018 14:25:03 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ccc.com; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=XifGKm11zSosXAM1xiQopxXOAEnHqU9HFN5DtHGDlRI=; b=EwV+XeCqqk7AkFV7s9bS6EgHTjECE6GF6XPfEh85XRFU/6Mpvv1nmNDozBb9OQPI6/ OoqFL7uxhWqKogs4wsdth9J1LJ1EkR5FYVVvuPReVTO9Dpz4Iq6Y3GZXMAEvCQpkeIwE RYDG/kGolg43PjSvFwZFtCkDLKgnonxgev4Ak= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=XifGKm11zSosXAM1xiQopxXOAEnHqU9HFN5DtHGDlRI=; b=ZUGbMFwGlIIkuHz2PqwRhBE2u4s01x6V59roRyDLdE7gahKj7WFoPqp3djsH6+Z8Fo p9BApwWMuSAARKmxg2Ut340Hm4asGli5fYahuY/UQNMqPQHLeLZUTgrfMhUybwss5tSq K8xufk6Qzs2olyeSxQxlsT3OJyviieO0AkMUGyr1ntlQuWxxkr4VJ+upl7EAPIypZ+Jr J4LBPFSHSIPMmSS2MslcqNiDThtXJOCrUYcanAa0yCZTKS7BEm2B1xXEz/V6wQN6FpOY Une1jFS/WqYJT6efsnKgjNT54TUOslVCO8OIR7HW1wOARH5QfaXDREBK53Br6uteR+E8 W+Fg== X-Gm-Message-State: AA+aEWa147Aih8P8KLBN0RrtDMXxn762sSjzoYkZhbCPifpphmR7vuVq bVeEUSitzgtMCi/mimRndy0XRoQl5v3J6clPqYFxhA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AFSGD/WMo7gQZ8rq86O12kvN43zDmrm+CUwiDo7XhcmkgTUVkn6l54K9GCwY8zka35GCpMTT2WDsubgoPnJ71iXvZX0= X-Received: by 2002:a1c:1383:: with SMTP id 125-v6mr50508wmt.71.1542407102120; Fri, 16 Nov 2018 14:25:02 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <201811160003.wAG03mlF139232@tahoe.cs.Dartmouth.EDU> <20181116045016.GK3341@mcvoy.com> <7a632484-cdc7-7c59-7077-7a2c752045da@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <4c36b2b2-76df-435f-27bc-e1feb0647f36@case.edu> <201811162113.wAGLDGiQ031455@darkstar.fourwinds.com> In-Reply-To: <201811162113.wAGLDGiQ031455@darkstar.fourwinds.com> From: Clem Cole Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2018 17:24:35 -0500 Message-ID: To: Jon Steinhart Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000006bdfdb057acfa35b" Subject: Re: [TUHS] man-page style X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" --0000000000006bdfdb057acfa35b Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Nov 16, 2018 at 4:40 PM Jon Steinhart wrote: > Emacs sort of violates my UNIX-sense as it does many things instead of > doing one thing well. > Exactly -- the idea is emacs is its own 'system' and you need to view the world through it. The funny thing is I had learned emacs >>before<< ed when I was PDP-10 hacking (i.e when it was a set of TECO macros). But ed for UNIX, was what we had and I learned it. It got the job done. I was happy. When emacs later appeared on UNIX, it really was not any better than what I had.. I could use both, but I quickly discovered I did not want to be inside of emacs all the time on UNIX (too slow and cranky). Since I followed the old UNIX rule of 'type of the cshell and program the bourne' -- I was unwilling to give into the emacs way, it made no sense to me to continue. I'm happy for those that like it and hey to each her/his own. As was discussed a few days ago in the ed/qed history -- ed was fine. And UNIX was SO much faster than the PDP-10s to do almost anything I wanted to do. And, when 'fred' and other video front ends for ed appeared, they made perfect sense - they were just ed with some way to move the 'soft' cursor since it was video not paper. They too were fast and simple. Which really was no different than the vi subcommand for ex, when it came along (FWIW: fred was the Cornell video front end for ed that I first saw on 6th edition I think, although it might have been 5th edition. Fred was 'hard coded' for the few terminals we had - DEC vt52, PE 'fox, and the Lear Siegler ADM3A'). I switched to vi later really because of termcap and ease of adding terminal support. But really the issue is that info introduced a new interface on a system > that already had one that people were accustomed to. This is something > that perpetually annoys me in the software world; people introducing new > ways of doing things that aren't improvements, just different. Just make= s > life harder for everyone else. > The rule of 'least astonishment' -- instead of making UNIX like ITS or whatever, 'info' seems like it is trying to force a new world on to someone because that programmer likes some other way bettter. i.e. https://xkcd.com/927/ I would not have minded having the 'info' interface so much if Gnu had kept 'man' as the high order bit and created the 'info' pages by 'mining' the man ones -- *i.e.* offering a second interface to the same information. But instead, they tried to force people to use 'info' instead of man and left the rela information out of man - trying to force you to their perfered interface. The believe that under the rule of 'Gnu is not Unix' - rms felt licensed to do so. Except the Gnu >>team<< cloned the UNIX interface and all of the UNIX tools - hence violating the rule of least astonishment. I think this is not a lot different than saying since Gnu is not Unix, we want a different (better) interface and we will not use read/write -- in Gnu we will have open/close/mmap --- just think what what have happenned. Not saying it might not have been 'better' but it would not have been 'Unix' -- same 'license' - Gnu is Not Unix -- but code would not have worked. So instead rms tries to force a new human interface and guess what, you have to reprogram a lot of people. Clem =E1=90=A7 --0000000000006bdfdb057acfa35b Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Fri, Nov 16, 2018 at 4:40 PM= Jon Steinhart <jon@fourwinds.com> wrote:
Emacs sort of violates my UNIX-sens= e as it does many things instead of doing one thing well.

As was discussed a few days ago in the ed/qed history -- ed was f= ine.=C2=A0 And UNIX was SO much faster than the PDP-10s to do almost anythi= ng I wanted to do.=C2=A0 =C2=A0And, when 'fred' and other video fro= nt ends for ed appeared, they made perfect sense - they were just ed with s= ome way to move the 'soft' cursor since it was video not paper.=C2= =A0 They too were fast and simple.=C2=A0 Which really was no different than= the vi subcommand for ex, when it came along (FWIW: fred was the Cornell v= ideo front end for ed that I first saw on 6th edition I think, although it = might have been 5th edition.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Fred was 'hard coded' for = the few terminals we had - DEC vt52, PE 'fox, and the Lear Siegler ADM3= A').=C2=A0 I switched to vi later really because of termcap and ease of= adding terminal support.

But really the issue is that info introduced a new interface on a system that already had one that people were accustomed to.=C2=A0 This is somethin= g
that perpetually annoys me in the software world; people introducing new ways of doing things that aren't improvements, just different.=C2=A0 Ju= st makes
life harder for everyone else.

= I would not have minded having the 'info= 9; interface so much if Gnu had kept 'man' as the high order bit an= d created the 'info' pages by 'mining' the man ones -- i= .e. offering a second interface to the same information.=C2=A0 But inst= ead, they tried to force people to use 'info' instead of man and le= ft the rela information out of man - trying to force you to their perfered = interface.=C2=A0 =C2=A0The believe that under the rule of 'Gnu is not U= nix' - rms felt licensed to do so.=C2=A0 Except the Gnu >>team<= ;< cloned the UNIX interface and all of the UNIX tools - hence violating= the rule of least astonishment.=C2=A0

<= /div>
I think this is not a lot different than saying since Gnu is n= ot Unix, we want a different (better) interface and we will not use read/wr= ite -- in Gnu we will have open/close/mmap ---=C2=A0 just think what what h= ave happenned.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Not saying it might not have been 'better= 9; but it would not have been 'Unix' -- same 'license' - Gn= u is Not Unix -- but code would not have worked.=C2=A0 =C2=A0 So instead rm= s tries to force a new human interface and guess what, you have to reprogra= m a lot of people.

= <= span class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri= f">Clem
3D""=E1=90=A7
--0000000000006bdfdb057acfa35b--