From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.1 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 16235 invoked from network); 4 Apr 2021 21:42:51 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (45.79.103.53) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 4 Apr 2021 21:42:51 -0000 Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 3413B9CA67; Mon, 5 Apr 2021 07:42:46 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 72BF79CA5B; Mon, 5 Apr 2021 07:42:21 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=pass (1024-bit key; unprotected) header.d=ccc.com header.i=@ccc.com header.b="Dx+My4Fl"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 8A4CD9CA5B; Mon, 5 Apr 2021 07:41:16 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-qv1-f53.google.com (mail-qv1-f53.google.com [209.85.219.53]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B4DDE9C883 for ; Mon, 5 Apr 2021 07:41:15 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-qv1-f53.google.com with SMTP id x16so4742154qvk.3 for ; Sun, 04 Apr 2021 14:41:15 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ccc.com; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=hemjniwBcfePcPmsmrroXj7W3mH4QxdRliVg662c3Cw=; b=Dx+My4FlaCJlji2b7ulyHMFTrH082kuFV7PRqfBa9NKJ6aw1kj6sNykS+tgEk57I5i 4dHRwuPMHLmv+lqh8tW7REOOB1O029QOM9QvgiuElsIVhXkoZNTGv2W7qJD3KbExfWtf aAg571BKgFu74VFOThd7z1YiKa7uek4p4Pyt4= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=hemjniwBcfePcPmsmrroXj7W3mH4QxdRliVg662c3Cw=; b=RTdPGU1zB5HS3DxVHtnEfnmtl9NWet/+yAorJNBq4isE8UQunzdmQVceR4s3oq0UkX oMXqaDj4JXuHfGz6hbOrSlSJ3ba7Xwn3amU8s/Y0ANHBh3jmIeuFBHd9KH///Z/8lpr7 3uK3QGeBlbgMiw/lTuYg30jFTjcoxMeEQCdyL+KduoSiDpKUbhJqtq97hKJm5qLmWxdl ASfTdVFR3xM80ar8cN7rHCkr6Daw9+BjplJcXNUSkOMaEvu1fkaqm3vY82zSKQe6sA2c vmTqH2N2rc7ynmHn08UyAZ2+9bzUL/dG8hOqaDK3CCIVI3rtFeAh2Vy+ffnwQIBAx5s/ YHpA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533PLU03NRymGBHiVbSF5j51v2lbfya5rrcjuGjePo+1VPd+Lm4S 6nYVNyt8/uQj+zYZ64VuDMWLh2m4wOQWLnaBz3dnnxWXyamS5JZm X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxITqbUrY6HvT+LK74zGCL24iwH3hHVoZGr43+pvFSJsLuuooD/incFj8JDR5KzlFxFU17tzieAaBjR9kAjtiM= X-Received: by 2002:a0c:b303:: with SMTP id s3mr21230226qve.22.1617572474724; Sun, 04 Apr 2021 14:41:14 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <584DED5A-1226-4AF7-A191-C34CAFA53686@pobox.com> <20210404022356.GR28660@mcvoy.com> <20210404085520.GA6494@naleco.com> <202104042100.134L0nTg086762@darkstar.fourwinds.com> In-Reply-To: <202104042100.134L0nTg086762@darkstar.fourwinds.com> From: Clem Cole Date: Sun, 4 Apr 2021 17:40:48 -0400 Message-ID: To: Jon Steinhart Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000c13ba005bf2c7008" Subject: Re: [TUHS] Zombified SCO comes back from the dead, brings trial back to life against IBM X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: TUHS main list Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" --000000000000c13ba005bf2c7008 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, Apr 4, 2021 at 5:01 PM Jon Steinhart wrote: > Yes, that really sucked but that wasn't until Solaris. > Hey Larry/Rob is that true? I thought the unbundling happened @ Sun when they created a compiler group and finally wrote their own production quality compilers like Masscomp, Apollo, and DEC had at the time. They really needed their own by the time Sun switched from 68K to SPARC. The original SunOS 68K C compiler was based on the MIT RTS compiler that I think Jack Test did the original back end for the Johnson compiler (and Tom Teixeira wrote the assembler). I know it was a couple of years before Sun invested in their own compiler technology. But Sun, (like Masscomp and Apollo), had a lot of ex-DEC folks in Marketing/Sales. DEC had always looked at the compiler has a revenue source [which I have always said is why C beat out BLISS -- C came with UNIX, BLISS cost $5K/cpu for VMS]. I do agree with Lyndon Nerenberg's comment, that Sun start to charge for th= e C compiler was the biggest help/legitimization that gcc ever got. At Masscomp we had our had own compiler by the second year (which was the primary reason why we won all the performance tests. Our marking weenies wanted to charge for it also. Tom and I were the primary ones that fought it and said, with UNIX you get a C compiler (plus we needed to compile conf.c and a few other things at the customer site for a custom kernel). What sales wanted to s was supply the RTS compiler for free and then charge for the better compiler. We won that skirmish, although I actually think it might have been that the Roger Gourd realized that compiler folk would have had to continue to support the old C compiler, too. So in the end, Fortran and Pascal were unbundled, although I think most (>90%) of the customer base did buy the Fortran system and probably about = =E2=85=93 bought Pascal too. Clem FYI - those same ex-DECies took the same ideas to Intel. It's only take me 10-15 years, but some of us finally won that war there. Check out: Download the Intel=C2=AE oneAPI Base Toolkit - you can get icx and ifx for free thes= e days for Linux and Mac. --000000000000c13ba005bf2c7008 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On S= un, Apr 4, 2021 at 5:01 PM Jon Steinhart <jon@fourwinds.com> wrote:
Yes, that really s= ucked but that wasn't until Solaris.
He= y Larry/Rob is that true?=C2=A0 I thought the unbundling happened @ Sun whe= n they created a compiler group and finally wrote their own production qual= ity compilers like Masscomp, Apollo, and DEC had at the time.=C2=A0 =C2=A0T= hey really needed their=C2=A0own by the time Sun switched from 68K to SPARC= .=C2=A0 The original SunOS 68K C compiler was based on the MIT R= TS compiler that I think Jack Test did the original back end for the=C2=A0J= ohnson compiler (and Tom Teixeira wrote the assembler).=C2=A0 I know it was= a couple of years before Sun invested in their own compiler technology.=C2= =A0 But Sun, (like Masscomp and Apollo), had a lot of ex-DEC folks in Marke= ting/Sales.=C2=A0 =C2=A0DEC had always looked at the compiler has a revenue= source [which I have always said is why C beat out BLISS -- C came with UN= IX, BLISS cost $5K/cpu for VMS].=C2=A0

I do agree with=C2=A0Ly= ndon Nerenberg's comment, that Sun start to=C2=A0charge for the C compiler was the biggest help/legitimization=C2= =A0that gcc ever got.

At Ma= sscomp we had our had own compiler by the second year (which was the primar= y reason why we won all the performance tests.=C2=A0 Our marking weenies wa= nted to charge for it also.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Tom and I were the primary ones tha= t fought it and said, with UNIX you get a C compiler (plus we needed to com= pile conf.c and a few other things at the= customer site for a custom kernel).=C2=A0 What sales wanted to s was suppl= y the RTS compiler for free and then charge for the better compiler.=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 We won that skirmish, although I actually think it might have been t= hat the Roger Gourd realized that compiler folk would have had to continue = to support the old C compiler, too.
So in the end,=C2= =A0=C2=A0Fort= ran and Pascal were unbundled, although I think most (>90%) of the custo= mer base did buy the=C2=A0Fortran system and probably= about =E2=85=93 bought Pascal too.

Clem

FYI - those same ex-DECies took the same ideas to = Intel.=C2=A0 =C2=A0It's only take me 10-15 years, but some of us finall= y won that war there.=C2=A0 Check out:=C2=A0=C2=A0

Download the Intel= =C2=AE oneAPI Base Toolkit<= font color=3D"#1a0dab" style=3D"font-weight:normal;font-family:arial,helvet= ica,sans-serif"> - you can get icx and if= x for free these days for Linux and Mac.


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