From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.1 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 12386 invoked from network); 12 Jan 2022 22:49:40 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (45.79.103.53) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 12 Jan 2022 22:49:40 -0000 Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 96C409CFDE; Thu, 13 Jan 2022 08:49:38 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75A289CF7E; Thu, 13 Jan 2022 08:49:21 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=pass (1024-bit key; unprotected) header.d=ccc.com header.i=@ccc.com header.b="Mj3sKoyd"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id C7A3E9CF7E; Thu, 13 Jan 2022 08:49:19 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-qk1-f170.google.com (mail-qk1-f170.google.com [209.85.222.170]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 45E8C9C78F for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2022 08:49:19 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-qk1-f170.google.com with SMTP id g2so5133595qkp.1 for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2022 14:49:19 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ccc.com; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=qtWEw+U6/c/UWIPmQJmD5HS9xgYpOhj/BNm2iTZkl0w=; b=Mj3sKoydsQk7YLXg8MfD4LqO6NvqaezZnSGD+YEWPoqdCQU9hSTjoaoGoNslvhFp3o s+20HHZBDykZBSMgpN7q8l3vpGbGZrZRkV74KKJ/4V2kia2BF+obGoUSQtBMi8b1Z8BS V66bLuULQ4DdVTtbXsPnYyXmH9ZsGd/f6ZKSo= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=qtWEw+U6/c/UWIPmQJmD5HS9xgYpOhj/BNm2iTZkl0w=; b=44ikR1rrnSvqKAkwaZOoxDHZBTc8twSXfn3514Jgxf3eWVfw4D/BR9XanF2JNkHOVr P0wHjpIJrrji55QjfWlPR2No4ro5uDQ9ZC3Li7hwLswG0JR4mtZUIFfTI6+3PJ1ANcVa SHWiLy57xzVVTbrTyYl3Ymk7lcMpgjsaoFTIxwPzH1+pjYxGzWhQqNlfZYqjsGLodlDj bVAv2TQyKDSSu8PZ2rfrzmyu7Tqo41Hr4v1Fipg1q2GXZmFUutshoVzx8gp4N8INpAsR +YIKgIerbGNunPqhIICBzPqOoGqk6gko52tO7o3lhTOfFGXLCWI5TNEpxAEw+asdBnkK SWsg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530lBbYDlzYiR1XfGMKrIA9OaBvi6z1Ym8yWUJRUPjmX7/lqVJ3q gG3QXkqyZ2zO6pzu6B921YX+rhCUy+hBMwRHCwz/2Q== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxoLcpNHAaMPFveRtmlIHKVapLWH/3Ot9TFd90K16mRJdN8igsB+TGAPmXsQG4kVA3JZo98s1tpoTsCcnIcZo4= X-Received: by 2002:a05:620a:2445:: with SMTP id h5mr1500776qkn.84.1642027758089; Wed, 12 Jan 2022 14:49:18 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20220101031511.GB8135@mcvoy.com> <20220111015901.GE25103@eureka.lemis.com> <4409b91cd794867d@orthanc.ca> <20220111024218.GE3441@mcvoy.com> <202201120854.20C8sDRR014233@freefriends.org> <20220112180619.mxzojchd62vpwm2f@localhost.localdomain> <8075a67e-7cf6-cf0c-b1e7-9c2b473b2892@halwitz.org> In-Reply-To: <8075a67e-7cf6-cf0c-b1e7-9c2b473b2892@halwitz.org> From: Clem Cole Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2022 17:48:52 -0500 Message-ID: To: Dan Halbert Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000003b8a3005d56a61cf" Subject: Re: [TUHS] *roff history as told to GNU X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" --0000000000003b8a3005d56a61cf Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Dan/Branden -- don't forget that IBM had a flavor of the runoff family also at least by the early 1970s when I saw it. In fact, I learned it before either the DEC ones for the PDP-10s which I saw next, and only after that the UNIX family. We ran the IBM doc tool on TSS [often of 2741 style devices], and I think it ran on MTS. Pre-laser printer days, although CS an XGP, it was only 200 dpi (and was on the PDP-10s). So CMU computer center (IBM shop) even had a very high end printer with a golf ball (serial) output device that was in a locked room that was connected the 360 that they used to print 'special' letters on a fan folded paper that was super high quality and then run through the 'burster' to remove the edges and make it single sheets [Acceptance letters and other special things got printed on it by the computer center for the administration]. I don't remember much about that part of the process, other than the input/prep was from the IBM version of a runoff like program and as an operator, we had to learn to make it go and run things out on it as needed. But I do remember it was a PITA to output to that thing, but the SW also worked on a traditional 2741. As a member of the computer staff I had access to the 2741 in my office (for APL work), but could set it up as a standard 2741 and type papers on it late at night. On Wed, Jan 12, 2022 at 1:42 PM Dan Halbert wrote: > On 1/12/22 13:06, G. Branden Robinson wrote: > > Hi, Dan, > > > > At 2022-01-12T11:33:35-0500, Dan Cross wrote: > >> I have some questions about the earlier history. > >> > >> I've been collecting a detailed narrative history not just of the *roff > >> _programs_ but also of the development on the language in the roff(7) > >> manual page. Below I'll share a current chunk of it that is planned for > >> the next release (groff 1.23). It has been heavily revised since > >> groff 1.22.4. Many of my revisions have been motivated by accounts from > >> this list, from the "history of man pages" (more of a history of troff) > >> at manpages.bsd.lv, and the minnie TUHS archive. > > I used RUNOFF on TOPS-10 in 1971, I think, and eventually also on TENEX > and TOPS-20. It probably was available earlier than that. Your history > is covering the Unix side, but there is also a pretty robust DEC side. > It was available on pretty much all the DEC machines. > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TYPSET_and_RUNOFF has some mentions. > > Dan H. > --0000000000003b8a3005d56a61cf Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dan/Branden -- don't forget that IBM had a flavor o= f the runoff family also at least by the early 1970s when I saw it.=C2=A0 I= n fact, I learned it before either the=C2=A0DEC ones for the PDP-10s which = I saw next, and only after that the UNIX family. =C2=A0 =C2=A0We ran the=C2= =A0IBM doc tool on TSS [often of 2741 style devices], and=C2=A0I think it r= an on MTS.=C2=A0 Pre-laser printer days, although=C2=A0CS an XGP, it was on= ly 200 dpi (and was on the PDP-10s).=C2=A0 So CMU computer center (IBM shop= ) even had a very high end printer with a golf ball (serial) output device = that was in a locked room that was connected the 360 that they used to prin= t 'special' letters on a fan folded paper that was super high quali= ty and then run through the 'burster' to remove the edges and make = it single sheets [Acceptance letters and other special things got printed o= n it by the computer center for the administration]. =C2=A0 I don't rem= ember=C2=A0much about that part of the process, other than the input/prep w= as from the IBM version of a runoff like program and as an operator, we had= to learn to make it go and run things out on it as needed. But I do rememb= er=C2=A0it was a PITA to output to that thing, but the=C2=A0SW also worked = on a traditional 2741.=C2=A0 As a member of the computer staff=C2=A0I had a= ccess to the 2741 in my office (for APL work), but could set it up as a sta= ndard 2741 and type papers on it late at night.

On Wed, Jan 12, 2022= at 1:42 PM Dan Halbert <halbert@= halwitz.org> wrote:
On 1/12/22 13:06, G. B= randen Robinson wrote:
> Hi, Dan,
>
> At 2022-01-12T11:33:35-0500, Dan Cross wrote:
>> I have some questions about the earlier history.
>>
>> I've been collecting a detailed narrative history not just of = the *roff
>> _programs_ but also of the development on the language in the roff= (7)
>> manual page.=C2=A0 Below I'll share a current chunk of it that= is planned for
>> the next release (groff 1.23).=C2=A0 It has been heavily revised s= ince
>> groff 1.22.4.=C2=A0 Many of my revisions have been motivated by ac= counts from
>> this list, from the "history of man pages" (more of a hi= story of troff)
>> at manpages.bsd.lv, and the minnie TUHS archive.

I used RUNOFF on TOPS-10 in 1971, I think, and eventually also on TENEX and TOPS-20. It probably was available earlier than that. Your history
is covering the Unix side, but there is also a pretty robust DEC side.
It was available on pretty much all the DEC machines.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TYPSET_and_RUNOFF h= as some mentions.

Dan H.
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