From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 11222 invoked from network); 4 Jan 2023 20:49:57 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (50.116.15.146) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 4 Jan 2023 20:49:57 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE75E424E5; Thu, 5 Jan 2023 06:49:34 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-ua1-f53.google.com (mail-ua1-f53.google.com [209.85.222.53]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 08765424AB for ; Thu, 5 Jan 2023 06:49:30 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-ua1-f53.google.com with SMTP id j1so7857290uan.1 for ; Wed, 04 Jan 2023 12:49:29 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ccc.com; s=google; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=JOTr3Aj9weCm3V+eAnKrguYxpoHEFuHmVvdUPkaRJNw=; b=oSyxjiVjVxUsFtbkp1V5sMbeOwZL/A11DDGIOtZ1zPNjyM0eXFuemR28aQzcurOYRA h5llDLryeTK19vZMoaB9iM9Jsi+GA3jvNcE/gbJRhGp5zigZ/p8zKdqWbuZHhlA5J59b OW18Z2DjM9E/6nZxEHCGeoqb66SErmBHnfB7U= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=JOTr3Aj9weCm3V+eAnKrguYxpoHEFuHmVvdUPkaRJNw=; b=ncHsFbON/BVvI6YXUvAuURJ0ykwRClpQdpdBrpbn1IPd0a5o8ySGDj9NqpuQTEm/SI 0VzqixsVvYAln0DpyBJVv9YeRqQunodzKErUdGPGuqx+DkX49u86omJRxFQkjSu8AhAq 8XL/NSGIDmUhBiDdCSCaSxjfa64W++TllG5Msl/plYUjE4a24cZSGGgtiHu0cTXBKY7P fWiIZKrBLLvuFLzN73CkNhFkWiebFioG9tMdzeByrA942yXw20QxiejT2k63uxRcihF1 idDy+h9pZRp5yhBfq7VjKVuZdT1LaRNGKSmxr2d8S1s7StYMKb8nlMRa89NxGtV8t7XQ xiuQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AFqh2krX2CUb2L+/h5kdY0WYprHlkBP8Giv4ku4j1pDE1kLDhCu6xX5c 8W6RkMaThzFcfKBSelt5nwi1mtRJrZvsrYQnPGRrQg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AMrXdXsOakkafFSr7xvHWW0fv1fDghkW3GLX//rJyFWFbkVlPMHjiPDl7OVXOMZbbFtiqvfJ7LRzC66IEmjO/HpoMmU= X-Received: by 2002:ab0:2e96:0:b0:419:beaa:df42 with SMTP id f22-20020ab02e96000000b00419beaadf42mr4753700uaa.32.1672865308969; Wed, 04 Jan 2023 12:48:28 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <371F8C4D-AAAC-4CD9-9547-3A7AC0C961D0@atvetsystems.com> In-Reply-To: From: Clem Cole Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2023 15:48:02 -0500 Message-ID: To: Warner Losh Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000007fa37105f1764e6e" Message-ID-Hash: PLA7TCDTFP7MOIECVJGWYSXVJROMD3HT X-Message-ID-Hash: PLA7TCDTFP7MOIECVJGWYSXVJROMD3HT X-MailFrom: clemc@ccc.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; header-match-tuhs.tuhs.org-0; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: segaloco , rob@atvetsystems.com, The Eunuchs Hysterical Society X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: AT&T UNIX PC (7300) Teardown and Restoration List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: --0000000000007fa37105f1764e6e Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Matt - send me an email offline if you need more help. Warner speaks the truth - although he left out some wizardry that has sadly been lost for ages. The first board he offers will create the interface that an IBM PC/AT created which was originally not a standard either (eventually EIA back fit it, in RS 232-E IIRC, but RS-232 C which is what the UNIX PC's interface was defined does not use it]. >From your email, it looks like AT&T out a standard Data Terminal Equipment (DTE) pinning on the back of that system (which would make sense). That means it should be a >>male<< 25 PIN (i.e. male) D style 'B-sized' connector with pins 2 (TX), 4 (RTS), 20 (DTR) being driven; and pins 3 (RX), 5 (CTS), 6 (DSR), 8( DCD), 22 (RI) as inputs. With Pin 7 being the signal reference ground and Pin 1 being the frame ground (often N/C - but do not short to 7 on your board) The signals should swing from +3 volts to up to +30 when assert as a spacing time, and -3 to -30 volts marking time. However, anything over +/- 15 volts is unusual, but the interface is required to accept it. Frankly, +/- 9 volts is most likely what you will see with the 1488/1489 driver pairs which were the preferred chips used in those days. Amazon does not seem to sell an equiv that spits out real RS-232C using the D connector, but rather this PC/AT variant, so you will need to make a cable -- the good news is they do sell: https://www.amazon.com/Kentek-Female-Serial-RS-232-Adapter/dp/B07KVFM4MS My suggestion would be to use this on you Mac/WIndows or Linux box: https://www.amazon.com/Sabrent-Converter-Prolific-Chipset-CB-DB9P/dp/B00IDS= M6BW connect it to the cable I just mentioned -- at that point your Mac/Windows/Linux Box will look like a Proper 'terminal' as the being expected then if needed a 25 pin null modem between it that the 3B1 such as: https://www.amazon.com/Monoprice-DB25-Null-Modem-Adaptor/dp/B001VL8RK2 or whatever one you need M/M, M/F -- etc... On Tue, Jan 3, 2023 at 7:58 PM Warner Losh wrote: > > https://www.amazon.com/NOYITO-Module-Conversion-Arduino-communicates/dp/B= 07BJJ1T5G > > is my go-to for when I need a simple one, though something like > > > https://www.amazon.com/NOYITO-Module-Conversion-Arduino-communicates/dp/B= 07BJJ3TZR > > might work better for your setup if you just have more of the TTL gear > than RS-232 gear (I have way too many old RS-232 cables because I never > know when I'll need them again...) > > Warner > > On Tue, Jan 3, 2023 at 5:46 PM segaloco wrote: > >> Nope, unfortunately I only know as much as is needed to plug into the >> GPIO RX/TX/GND working on single boards. I wouldn't be surprised if my >> assumption I just run these pins into the D-25 in the right holes is >> bunk...but that's how we learn sometimes. Once I move I should be able t= o >> setup a proper work bench where I can tinker on this sort of thing more >> intentionally rather than haphazardly. So perhaps a silly question for a= n >> expert but a valid one for me. I'll chase that angle and see if it bears >> fruit. >> >> - Matt G. >> ------- Original Message ------- >> On Tuesday, January 3rd, 2023 at 4:40 PM, Warner Losh >> wrote: >> >> >> >> On Tue, Jan 3, 2023, 5:30 PM segaloco via TUHS wrote: >> >>> I'd love to get my hands on a 3B2 someday, this'll be cool if I can get >>> it going but that'd be a much more robust machine. >>> >>> I'm starting to suspect if there isn't any sort of boot ROM that spits >>> out commentary on the UART and that doesn't get flexed until UNIX is up= , I >>> may not be able to get very far. I referred to >>> http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/att/3b1/999-809-010IS_UNIX_PC_Re= mote_Access_1986.pdf >>> for the serial settings and it appears: >>> >>> 9600 baud, 1 stop bit, no parity, 8 data bits >>> >>> And the relevant pins >>> >>> Pin 1 - GND >>> Pin 2 - RX >>> Pin 3 - TX >>> Pin 4 - RTS >>> Pin 5 - CTS >>> Pin 6 - DSR >>> Pin 7 - GND >>> Pin 8 - DCD >>> Pin 20 - DTR >>> >>> So I've plugged my USB-TTY GND/RX/TX into the relevant pins and setup >>> the necessary tty settings. The manual then suggests if running null mo= dem >>> mode to short pin 4 to 5 and then pins 6, 8, and 20 together, presumabl= y >>> omitting any need for modem signalling from the remote machine, doing b= asic >>> serial RX/TX. Unfortunately even with all of this bypassing I get nothi= ng >>> out of the RS-232 port. What I don't know is if I could even expect >>> something or if this is unlikely to bear fruit whether the hardware wor= ks >>> or not. In any case, if I do get this thing running I'll have a writeup= for >>> folks afterwards. If not, then hopefully I can figure out something use= ful >>> to do with this thing rather than junking it. >>> >> >> Silly question... did you level shift to RS 232 levels? You likely did..= . >> but if not... >> >> Warner >> >> - Matt G. >>> ------- Original Message ------- >>> On Tuesday, January 3rd, 2023 at 3:53 PM, rob@atvetsystems.com < >>> rob@atvetsystems.com> wrote: >>> >>> Hello Matt, >>> >>> I=E2=80=99ve got one of these in my garage. I bought it about twenty ye= ars ago >>> as a working system but when I got it home I noticed that the hard disk >>> wasn=E2=80=99t connected but at some point I=E2=80=99d like to get it a= nd my 3b2/300 >>> working. >>> >>> Regards, Rob. >>> >>> On 3 Jan 2023, at 23:27, segaloco via TUHS wrote: >>> >>> And here are some pictures of the guts. >>> >>> https://imgur.com/a/E1ioxZl >>> >>> Various bits inside date this to late 1985. The good news is it at leas= t >>> turns on, but that's about as far as I've gotten with it. The display n= ever >>> turns on, nor do I hear any sounds indicating it tries to start the CRT= . >>> The fans kick on and there it stays until I turn it off. I plugged in a >>> USB-TTY to pins 2, 3, and 7 (RX/TX/GND) and listened at 9600 baud 8 bit= 1 >>> stop no parity and got nothing. Swapped the RX/TX, still nothing. Of >>> course, that's all predicated on the assumption there's something there= to >>> even interact with. I have little faith that whatever UNIX install was = on >>> this is extant. Additionally, it didn't come with a keyboard, so if the= re >>> was some futzing with key combos that would trigger some sort of UART o= ver >>> those lines, I can't do that. I wonder if there are some contacts insid= e I >>> can just poll for activity with this serial connector, not sure how saf= e >>> that is... >>> >>> Anywho, the CPU has a bit of corrosion on the surface, not sure how tha= t >>> bodes for the innards, but this is in kinda rough shape either way. I h= ope >>> I can salvage it but if not, I'm going to at least do some study on the= CRT >>> particulars and see if I can extract and keep the monitor from it, been >>> wanting a smaller CRT to have around for a while. >>> >>> - Matt G. >>> ------- Original Message ------- >>> On Tuesday, January 3rd, 2023 at 12:20 PM, segaloco via TUHS < >>> tuhs@tuhs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Good day everyone, just starting a thread for yet another project I'll >>> be tinkering on over time. Picked up a (presumably broken/untested) 730= 0 >>> off eBay to at the very least tear down and get some good pictures of a= nd, >>> with some luck, perhaps get working again. >>> >>> https://imgur.com/a/CExzebl >>> >>> Here are some pictures of the exterior for starters. I'll update this >>> thread when I've got pictures of the guts and also with any info I can >>> glean regarding whether this might be salvageable. The rust on the back= is >>> pretty nasty but I've seen older/worse start up just fine. >>> >>> - Matt G. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> --0000000000007fa37105f1764e6e Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Matt - send me an email offline if you need more help.= =C2=A0 =C2=A0Warner speaks the truth - although he left out some wizardry= =C2=A0that has sadly been lost for ages.

The first boa= rd he offers will create the interface that an IBM PC/AT created which was = originally not a standard either (eventually EIA back fit it, in RS 232-E I= IRC, but RS-232 C which is what the UNIX PC's interface was defined doe= s not use it].

From your email, it looks like AT&T= out a standard Data Terminal Equipment (DTE) pinning on the back of that s= ystem (which would make sense). That means it should be a >>male<&= lt; 25 PIN (i.e. male) D style 'B-sized' connector with pins 2 (TX)= , 4 (RTS), 20 (DTR) being driven; and pins 3 (RX), 5 (CTS), 6 (DSR), 8( DCD= ), 22 (RI) as inputs.=C2=A0 With Pin 7 being the signal reference ground an= d Pin 1 being the frame ground=C2=A0(often N/C - but do not short to 7 on y= our board)

The=C2=A0signals should swing from=C2=A0+3 = volts to up to=C2=A0+30 when assert as a spacing time, and=C2=A0 -3 to -30 = volts marking time. However, anything=C2=A0over=C2=A0+/- 15 volts is unusua= l, but the interface is required to accept it.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Frankly,=C2=A0+/= - 9 volts is most likely what you will see with the 1488/1489 driver pairs = which were the preferred chips used in those days.=C2=A0=C2=A0

=
Amazon=C2=A0does not seem to sell an equiv that spits out real RS-= 232C using the D connector, but rather this PC/AT variant, so you will need= to make a cable -- the good news is they do sell:=C2=A0https://w= ww.amazon.com/Kentek-Female-Serial-RS-232-Adapter/dp/B07KVFM4MS

My suggestion would be to use this on you Mac/WIndows or Linu= x box:
https://www.amazon.com/Sabrent-Converter-Pr= olific-Chipset-CB-DB9P/dp/B00IDSM6BW
connect it to the cable I = just mentioned -- at that point your Mac/Windows/Linux Box will look like a= Proper 'terminal' as the being expected then if needed

a 25 pin=C2=A0 null modem between it that the 3B1 su= ch as:=C2=A0https://www.amazon.com/Monoprice-DB25-Null-Modem-Adapto= r/dp/B001VL8RK2 or whatever one you need M/M, M/F -- etc...


On Tue, Jan 3, 2023 at 7:58 PM Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com> wrote:
https://www.amazon.com/NOYITO-Module-Conversion-Arduin= o-communicates/dp/B07BJJ1T5G

is my go-to for when I = need a simple one, though something like


mig= ht work better for your setup if you just have more of the TTL gear than RS= -232 gear (I have way too many old RS-232 cables because I never know when = I'll need them again...)

Warner
On Tue, J= an 3, 2023 at 5:46 PM segaloco <segaloco@protonmail.com> wrote:
Nope, unfortunately I only know as much a= s is needed to plug into the GPIO RX/TX/GND working on single boards. I wou= ldn't be surprised if my assumption I just run these pins into the D-25= in the right holes is bunk...but that's how we learn sometimes. Once I= move I should be able to setup a proper work bench where I can tinker on t= his sort of thing more intentionally rather than haphazardly. So perhaps a = silly question for an expert but a valid one for me. I'll chase that an= gle and see if it bears fruit.

- Matt G.
------- Original Message -------
On Tuesday, January 3rd, 2023 at 4:40 PM, Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com> wrote:<= br>


On Tue, Jan 3, 2023, 5:30 PM segaloco via = TUHS <tuhs@tuhs.org> wrote:
I'd love to get my hands on a 3= B2 someday, this'll be cool if I can get it going but that'd be a m= uch more robust machine.

I'm starting to suspect if there isn't any sort= of boot ROM that spits out commentary on the UART and that doesn't get= flexed until UNIX is up, I may not be able to get very far. I referred to = http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/att/3b1/999-809-010IS= _UNIX_PC_Remote_Access_1986.pdf for the serial settings and it a= ppears:

9600 baud, 1 stop bit, no parity, 8 data bits

And the relevant pins
=

=
Pin 1 - GN= D
Pin= 2 - RX
Pin 3 - TX
Pin 4 - RTS
Pin 5 - CTS
Pin 6 - DSR
Pin 7 - GND
Pin 8 - DCD
Pin 20 - DTR

So I've plugged my = USB-TTY GND/RX/TX into the relevant pins and setup the necessary tty settin= gs. The manual then suggests if running null modem mode to short pin 4 to 5= and then pins 6, 8, and 20 together, presumably omitting any need for mode= m signalling from the remote machine, doing basic serial RX/TX. Unfortunate= ly even with all of this bypassing I get nothing out of the RS-232 port. Wh= at I don't know is if I could even expect something or if this is unlik= ely to bear fruit whether the hardware works or not. In any case, if I do g= et this thing running I'll have a writeup for folks afterwards. If not,= then hopefully I can figure out something useful to do with this thing rat= her than junking it.

Silly question... did you level shift to RS 232 level= s? You likely did... but if not...

Warner

- Matt G.
=
------- Original Message -------
On Tuesday, January 3rd, 2023 at 3:53 PM, rob@a= tvetsystems.com <rob@atvetsystems.com> wr= ote:

Hello Matt,

I=E2=80=99ve got one of these in= my garage. I bought it about twenty years ago as a working system but when= I got it home I noticed that the hard disk wasn=E2=80=99t connected but at= some point I=E2=80=99d like to get it and my 3b2/300 working.

=
Regards, Rob.

On 3 = Jan 2023, at 23:27, segaloco via TUHS <tuhs@tuhs.org>= ; wrote:

And here are some pictures of the guts.


Various bits ins= ide date this to late 1985. The good news is it at least turns on, but that= 's about as far as I've gotten with it. The display never turns on,= nor do I hear any sounds indicating it tries to start the CRT. The fans ki= ck on and there it stays until I turn it off. I plugged in a USB-TTY to pin= s 2, 3, and 7 (RX/TX/GND) and listened at 9600 baud 8 bit 1 stop no parity = and got nothing. Swapped the RX/TX, still nothing. Of course, that's al= l predicated on the assumption there's something there to even interact= with. I have little faith that whatever UNIX install was on this is extant= . Additionally, it didn't come with a keyboard, so if there was some fu= tzing with key combos that would trigger some sort of UART over those lines= , I can't do that. I wonder if there are some contacts inside I can jus= t poll for activity with this serial connector, not sure how safe that is..= .

Anywho, the CPU has a bit of corrosio= n on the surface, not sure how that bodes for the innards, but this is in k= inda rough shape either way. I hope I can salvage it but if not, I'm go= ing to at least do some study on the CRT particulars and see if I can extra= ct and keep the monitor from it, been wanting a smaller CRT to have around = for a while.

- Matt G.
------- Original Message -------
On Tuesday, January 3rd, 2023 at 12:20 PM, segaloco via TUHS <tuhs@tuhs.org> wrote:

Good day everyone, just starting a thread for yet another = project I'll be tinkering on over time. Picked up a (presumably broken/= untested) 7300 off eBay to at the very least tear down and get some good pi= ctures of and, with some luck, perhaps get working again.





--0000000000007fa37105f1764e6e--