From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,HTML_FONT_LOW_CONTRAST,HTML_MESSAGE, MAILING_LIST_MULTI,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [45.79.103.53]) by inbox.vuxu.org (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id c3c98012 for ; Fri, 16 Nov 2018 13:43:28 +0000 (UTC) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 9E8C2A26EC; Fri, 16 Nov 2018 23:43:27 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 175E0A26D5; Fri, 16 Nov 2018 23:43:05 +1000 (AEST) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 74AB9A26D5; Fri, 16 Nov 2018 23:42:58 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-wr1-f41.google.com (mail-wr1-f41.google.com [209.85.221.41]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B02A0A26D4 for ; Fri, 16 Nov 2018 23:42:52 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-wr1-f41.google.com with SMTP id z13-v6so24948568wrs.3 for ; Fri, 16 Nov 2018 05:42:52 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ccc.com; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=UuC4S/uqOmOF3XNpBuvyLX14+wYJ0ndelKnMtpzZ/f0=; b=KBJla7daP8m6BAX+WA3ImlSQUutmLwY349Gi0ovHaCMYIPdxwfG1lmvcyU5Vk411Vc RjSdIMHLWsvzm5LGbdE5gZlU+WkmlgVWXm18ZaJQfbxUCgqBolH7qIPhlpEKd63/WVR1 O+8J8Vz9xBEHhCj3aAXSj05I+DRPLig2dXcis= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=UuC4S/uqOmOF3XNpBuvyLX14+wYJ0ndelKnMtpzZ/f0=; b=evBvyr5Naqket9/z+9MyQEIGoBXAvC3uEUJIZSAEJ38/PbdrnYwNL8zXbb+nwQkMY1 yDNdMQVyGsgMq2/1R6KaqarRWfdeBdXfrLrTjL5+mnNahUMYMz3l6fm9FFhDJRadWcty +fOrxWBOWc0FwjpdMhptMMJcHWun5hIUw5+Z5iZ9vdtFcbMMf/3zCd2EBpVe1NNk3lEc OBSVpUZOc4T1pDy56veS+bNXvr8l0ZoTSLXmc9Uhfnny+UkYCdtuOvl41T/IFPEpLgyI 3LhK2/6UkNySLyfPXC4BlJ9eizMWNadYgUh425t6qbqsBg7AMctxJFikHCi0Qj4grB3A oKWQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AGRZ1gK00OwIasWewJ26wjv1rAvqv1O4Vbb5TPbH1/MoMOfLCrwetJ0c ynkGU+sjKWHV+bl48UOo+ZdJZpJWZBGZaGgBjDT+0w== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AJdET5e8iAFYajDeHi300mrD5YbjXazjT8tiW9aYDLu1ui1YSQc0IbQCjiTQrV46axJrZxQfXguH3APujbzNh6Efdls= X-Received: by 2002:a5d:4609:: with SMTP id t9-v6mr9726727wrq.198.1542375770284; Fri, 16 Nov 2018 05:42:50 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <201811160143.wAG1hqbV019990@tahoe.cs.Dartmouth.EDU> <20181116063856.GL3341@mcvoy.com> In-Reply-To: <20181116063856.GL3341@mcvoy.com> From: Clem Cole Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2018 08:42:24 -0500 Message-ID: To: Larry McVoy Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000e5fd7d057ac85789" Subject: Re: [TUHS] man-page style X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society , Doug McIlroy Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" --000000000000e5fd7d057ac85789 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Nov 16, 2018 at 1:39 AM Larry McVoy wrote: > Marc had some insight, he said that roff -ms mostly said what you wanted > to do, not how to do it. > Which of course is the basic foundation of Rob's and Brian's "UNIX philosophy" from their >>still<< ever so relevent book UPE. These are the core ideas that to me are the basis for a true 'thinking persons view of computer world' vs. the 'I can do anything view' or vs. 'I don't care, you can do it for me.' MS Word (Windows philidophy) fron Redmond tries to tell me what I should want something 'should' look like/do - *i.e.* hey you user -- just need to 'fill in the blanks' and we will do everything for you. Which if what you want to do is what they thought of and what they think is proper can be easy no doubt, but you are screwed if what you value / desire is just a little different. LaTex and friends (VMS from the OS standpoint) strive to solve that by make everything possible so it can be as 'pretty' as possible. We were recently discussing Oster's new book and his term about 'deep interfaces.' To me the message of UPE (and the roff family) is simple: I've thought about what I want: i.e. Computer do what want you to do for m= e, not what you think I should do or make me work so hard to get what I want done, that is not worth the trouble. Then make *that simple* for me to describe to the computer and the complex part, be *handled by the system doing the work*, but the work should not be so 'hidden' that I as the user of the system, can not describe something different than what you (the system programmer) think I need to do or may be so complex for you as the system implementor to do for me. Clem =E1=90=A7 --000000000000e5fd7d057ac85789 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Fri, Nov 16, 2018 at 1:39 AM= Larry McVoy <lm@mcvoy.com> wrote= :
Marc had some insight, he said that roff -ms mo= stly said what you wanted to do, not how to do it.=C2=A0=C2=A0
Which of course is the basic fo= undation of Rob's and Brian's "UNIX philosophy" from thei= r >>still<< ever so relevent book UPE.
=
These are = the core ideas that to me are the basis for a true 'thinking persons vi= ew of computer world'=C2=A0 vs. the 'I can do anything view' or= vs. 'I don't care, you can do it for me.'=C2=A0 MS Word=C2=A0 = (Windows philidophy) fron Redmond tries to tell me what I should want somet= hing 'should' look like/do - i.e.=C2=A0hey you user --=C2=A0= just need to 'fill in the blanks' and we will do everything for yo= u.=C2=A0 Which if what you want to do is what they thought of and what they= think is proper can be easy no doubt, but you are screwed if what you valu= e / desire is just a little different.=C2=A0 =C2=A0 LaTex and friends (VMS = from the OS standpoint) strive to solve that by make everything possible so= it can be as 'pretty' as possible.

We were rec= ently discussing Oster's new book and his term about 'deep interfac= es.'=C2=A0 =C2=A0To me the message of UPE (and the roff family) is simple:=C2= =A0 I've thought about what I want: i.e.=C2=A0 Computer do= what want you to do for me, not what you think I should do or m= ake me work so hard to get what I want done, that is not worth the trouble.= =C2=A0=C2=A0 Then make that simple for me to describe to the com= puter and the complex part, be handled by the system doing the work,= =C2=A0 but the work should not be so 'hidden' that I as the user of= the system, can not describe something different than what you (the system= programmer) think I need to do or may be so complex for you as the system = implementor to do for me.

Clem
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