From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [45.79.103.53]) by inbox.vuxu.org (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id 76268d68 for ; Thu, 11 Apr 2019 13:49:17 +0000 (UTC) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 6BB0F94EC6; Thu, 11 Apr 2019 23:49:16 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3BA8294925; Thu, 11 Apr 2019 23:48:34 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=fail reason="signature verification failed" (1024-bit key; unprotected) header.d=ccc.com header.i=@ccc.com header.b="jgepk3Y7"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 5F64894926; Thu, 11 Apr 2019 23:48:32 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-wm1-f45.google.com (mail-wm1-f45.google.com [209.85.128.45]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 413FB94925 for ; Thu, 11 Apr 2019 23:48:31 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-wm1-f45.google.com with SMTP id n25so6772864wmk.4 for ; Thu, 11 Apr 2019 06:48:31 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ccc.com; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=iOY8Uc143eKCR/aoaBn6d50CVV18F2ha7CY7T/X0dbg=; b=jgepk3Y7JDJVWt+XwOUtt/lchGY7/pMNZHU/6yzaf+erJSW9zdgcW6WoAXWwsBylQe CAKLb73MLEcEG+gpDJJ7duxF+hQToSmehhdtAI13XK1Fq2yqGMEkPd+5Dagu2hjlbT8r /IegpdSXKjuD3BrMjbhPRxdKoEQHmnmEY6YZ0= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=iOY8Uc143eKCR/aoaBn6d50CVV18F2ha7CY7T/X0dbg=; b=FXReMCqjMuCgQFE8+x9CDdHSidCCQ1psX2nLhCZlX5YrqxBp6mFVvTkDzchIOFqObo gm0CPwQpI4r+wMzB2TAGDfMvr+hsgETXIJOY8xuTRvNTKCJji6pCuN4g/jUBxOjIxLBm U2hbjcclRkVX6DbLKq5RqH+c1JyaFR7rUPvpHk+HV5RmUTWd8CxPJ5dqPnctHnJwVUj9 RRJsx90CGEaRhtFx7nds/gjOnMloSbjAsrzUFRtfUrm+4GPWc8j15jgZPGsGER5ryQSy RAsiM9dQci1AF0ZTpoduyy6Hppaqyp+JnT0bTog04fqlf7uD06XB+sROiX2NrSYc/HTJ o9Mw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWjNxIcGfBUhr9rSWdQY6r+0ZnA9tQz1yqPo+Da3OOWUnxZq/IB CcL1YHfQ9PGOAPZL+xJyjt0EUX/q/CXQrBtwhe2e4Q== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqw9MFn+BvTCHXICVnbIgQ6kGL7Kv6KycN0uUMswp95ZzeWxqoXWR3hEHkiVNPuaG6m9cItlfLt+WiydvMHzGKc= X-Received: by 2002:a1c:96d5:: with SMTP id y204mr6710994wmd.22.1554990509600; Thu, 11 Apr 2019 06:48:29 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <14453.1554920068@cesium.clock.org> <57C2E8D6-148C-487E-A6AE-B6E0E6EC337C@bitblocks.com> <7b575d14-270c-1d3a-7419-0329ffb42669@esse.ch> In-Reply-To: <7b575d14-270c-1d3a-7419-0329ffb42669@esse.ch> From: Clem Cole Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2019 09:48:03 -0400 Message-ID: To: Fabio Scotoni Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000f44c7305864170e4" Subject: Re: [TUHS] Paper discussing Unix boot process? X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" --000000000000f44c7305864170e4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" As my very fragile nth edition photocopy shows, the original Western Electric copies are not troff'ed and run through a typesetter because John (like most of us at the time) did not have access to one (and Tom Ferrin had not yet done the vcat(1) hack at UCSF). Lions used standard nroff output - (in this case, originally to 132 column line printer paper I believe). FWIW: [I would check with one of his former students who might know for sure], but I was under the impression he used the 5th/6th edition version of the Mike Lesk Macro's (-ms) that were around with nroff at the time. I don't remember how underlining was done in the book, because raw nroff generated ASR37 codes native, and the ul(1) program would not get a wide release until after BSD [but it is probable that other folks did something similar too]. Again, I've forgotten how this all worked, but sadly there was a time when I used it every day ;-) IIRC early nroff may have had a switch to generate line printer codes instead. Also, the 'memorandum macros' (-mm) came out of Whippany, and I believe were first released with PWB. They may have been included with the typesetter C release too, but I don't think they are part of V7. Eric's UCB thesis macros, (-me) show up with one of the BSDs releases. It's funny, I used -ms first then got really hot for -mm because they could do things like Lists better and used them until I went to UCB. But after doing my thesis I went back to the simplicity of Lesk's macros, but carry a couple of extra (like Lists) in my personal front end. Like Larry, troff/nroff still my preferred way to do a large document with chapters Clem. On Thu, Apr 11, 2019 at 12:58 AM Fabio Scotoni wrote: > On 4/11/19 1:19 AM, Bakul Shah wrote: > > On Apr 10, 2019, at 3:24 PM, Clem Cole wrote: > >> > >> [...] is the Lions book including PS and PDF and in the original troff > thankfully. > > > > Sorry to disappoint you but it's the same LaTeX source. > > > >> [Why someone would convert it to tex is a little beyond me]. > > > > > > May be someone will be inspired enough to convert this to troff? > > > > > > Not to be too negative, but converting it to troff would be somewhat of > an effort; however, the gains for that seem to be comparatively small. > It would be a change from one language to another, neither of which are > a 1:1 copy of the original. > Even if you had the original troff sources of the book, > groff, heirloom-troff and Plan9 ditroff probably all have line breaking > and character positioning algorithms that don't match the original troff > at the time. > > If someone were to undertake this troff endeavor, aiming for a perfect > recreation would be the most beneficial (yet also most difficult) thing > to do. > I've never seen the original commentary, but I'll assume that it used a > homebrewed set of macros. > Thus, the first step would be to reverse engineer the troff macros used > to typeset the book. > Then the TeX sources would need to be converted to those troff macros; > this can possibly be automated entirely. > Then the matching version of troff would need to be used to typeset it > (likely via apout and V6 or V7 troff). > Finally, the C/A/T typesetter output would need to be converted to > PostScript or PDF (either Adobe's psroff or Chris Lewis's psroff from > comp.unix.sources can likely help with that; I got Lewis's psroff to > work a while ago, but it's pretty brittle). > --000000000000f44c7305864170e4 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
As my very fragile nth edition photocopy shows, the ori= ginal Western Electric copies are not troff'ed=C2=A0and run through a t= ypesetter because John (like most of us at the time) did not have access to= one (and Tom Ferrin had not yet done the vcat(1) hack at UCSF).=C2=A0 Lion= s used standard nroff output - (in this case, originally to 132 column line= printer paper I believe).=C2=A0

FWIW: [I would check = with one of his former students who might know for sure], but I was under t= he impression he used the 5th/6th edition version of the Mike Lesk Macro= 9;s (-ms) that were around with nroff at the time.=C2=A0 =C2=A0I don't = remember how underlining was done in the book, because raw nroff generated = ASR37 codes native, and the ul(1)=C2=A0program would not get a=C2=A0wide re= lease until after BSD [but it is probable that other folks did something si= milar too].=C2=A0 Again, I've forgotten how this all worked, but sadly = there was a time when I used it every day ;-)=C2=A0 =C2=A0 IIRC early nroff= may have had a switch to generate line printer codes instead.

=
Also, the 'memorandum macros' (-mm) came out of Whippany, = and I believe were first released with PWB. They may have been included wit= h the typesetter C release too, but I don't think they are part of V7.= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Eric's UCB thesis macros, (-me) show up with one of the B= SDs releases.

It's funny, I used -ms first then go= t really hot for -mm=C2=A0 because=C2=A0they could do things like Lists bet= ter and used them until I went to UCB.=C2=A0 But after doing my thesis I we= nt back to the simplicity of Lesk's macros, but carry a couple of extra= (like Lists) in my personal front end.=C2=A0

Like La= rry, troff/nroff still my preferred way to do a large document with chapter= s

Clem.

On Thu, Apr 11, 2019 at 12:58 AM Fabio Sc= otoni <fabio@esse.ch> wrote:
=
On 4/11/19 1:19 AM,= Bakul Shah wrote:
> On Apr 10, 2019, at 3:24 PM, Clem Cole <clemc@ccc.com> wrote:
>>
>> [...] is the Lions book including PS and PDF and in the original t= roff thankfully.
>
> Sorry to disappoint you but it's the same LaTeX source.
>
>> [Why someone would convert it to tex is a little beyond me].
>
>
> May be someone will be inspired enough to convert this to troff?
>
>

Not to be too negative, but converting it to troff would be somewhat of
an effort; however, the gains for that seem to be comparatively small.
It would be a change from one language to another, neither of which are
a 1:1 copy of the original.
Even if you had the original troff sources of the book,
groff, heirloom-troff and Plan9 ditroff probably all have line breaking
and character positioning algorithms that don't match the original trof= f
at the time.

If someone were to undertake this troff endeavor, aiming for a perfect
recreation would be the most beneficial (yet also most difficult) thing
to do.
I've never seen the original commentary, but I'll assume that it us= ed a
homebrewed set of macros.
Thus, the first step would be to reverse engineer the troff macros used
to typeset the book.
Then the TeX sources would need to be converted to those troff macros;
this can possibly be automated entirely.
Then the matching version of troff would need to be used to typeset it
(likely via apout and V6 or V7 troff).
Finally, the C/A/T typesetter output would need to be converted to
PostScript or PDF (either Adobe's psroff or Chris Lewis's psroff fr= om
comp.unix.sources can likely help with that; I got Lewis's psroff to work a while ago, but it's pretty brittle).
--000000000000f44c7305864170e4--