From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.6 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [45.79.103.53]) by inbox.vuxu.org (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id dd15bff5 for ; Tue, 27 Aug 2019 23:10:51 +0000 (UTC) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id B7BE79BC78; Wed, 28 Aug 2019 09:10:50 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3BECF9BC01; Wed, 28 Aug 2019 09:10:19 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=fail reason="signature verification failed" (1024-bit key; unprotected) header.d=ccc.com header.i=@ccc.com header.b="V2Fhi9Kw"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 77F379BBFD; Wed, 28 Aug 2019 09:10:17 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-wm1-f53.google.com (mail-wm1-f53.google.com [209.85.128.53]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4E4AF9BBFD for ; Wed, 28 Aug 2019 09:10:16 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-wm1-f53.google.com with SMTP id t6so720549wmj.4 for ; Tue, 27 Aug 2019 16:10:16 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ccc.com; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=eK51D8fiNXzq9rSPaMQb1d1/ph/UYtSCIlTRUnIV8cc=; b=V2Fhi9KwX3oZiX/BeExq9GPVZpwFjQUcXLIXmeMAYkd5I4UvtgbQ3BrCSkcmNW7uAL pThMDX/EOdrP9oFagBRJq2xYg8O6HjJolyWZtchx+L7+6urqNU7Pxr/rCNsY6SKlltJv +uPM1vX8lA0a/3y1bLv/7uHyJpUNHTdBMzKCM= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=eK51D8fiNXzq9rSPaMQb1d1/ph/UYtSCIlTRUnIV8cc=; b=kGPFYwDrY94b/nT/b4UnRrcNgnHH3AJDsBOP+EKWFEjswZXIO2b4EcGjmg9zoL1k6C 34kiB5EDrKlPW2VpyYpczdIyE0oQWsTMe9lCP+zYVvwCUlogpK9oEblpSjVcq7MMX1sj yLXT30b7gvQtS2YcS1nBjsJlIUrw2pJEsbWYX+xIpxqpu+24ppm5g8Mi052rRXigdGBM HuWf4jWkMMh/k6x6WMA/TocU3yYpTwOEk//wHBmn09Jpvb8W1DOCP0Vz2VVbr19EQ+XK KmJR3erRUsO00wEgjXJsEHECw2Qq+YHUD7mqhtnhOGB8btcRZuhLv03vF8Dpb+j19gO7 +GSw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAV/06CwwxWdkfDhsAtTogo7samW4J+B0UTOqlnxGwQl6ug1KqCf B9o0JSB+clI4yILPBjNjSaAZejcUZnCVK5YqekrLyI1an68= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqyqTmRZAjANqgjbEyKmWwfBCc2ZRUVcf9mabpauQZ+14ZBiHtwi63ABUKHE5yrc9j1SwEEO9qm44MSOpANslcI= X-Received: by 2002:a7b:ca54:: with SMTP id m20mr874119wml.102.1566947414799; Tue, 27 Aug 2019 16:10:14 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20190827003013.GS13570@mcvoy.com> <312b39a1-2944-100f-55e0-fc65b504d43d@kilonet.net> <20190827024511.GU13570@mcvoy.com> <20190827145556.GD13570@mcvoy.com> <20190827224002.GB15511@mcvoy.com> <20190827225955.GC15511@mcvoy.com> In-Reply-To: <20190827225955.GC15511@mcvoy.com> From: Clem Cole Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2019 19:10:03 -0400 Message-ID: To: Larry McVoy Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000000a89b70591216014" Subject: Re: [TUHS] If not Linux, then what? X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: TUHS main list Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" --0000000000000a89b70591216014 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" I had a similar conversation btw. I liked what Dennis did to clean up the tty handler but I agree as a networking interface it was wretched which is what system v did. At stellar we put in the bbn (walsh2) stack and spliced back in sockets so the bsd code still worked. That said the idea of trying to keep the everything is a file semantic was good and streams were closer. The problem sockets is they really were not quite The same. What I liked about plan 9 was breaking the control interface out so the file stuff stayed sane. But that was a bridge to far for a traditional Unix. On Tue, Aug 27, 2019 at 7:00 PM Larry McVoy wrote: > streams were OK but Dennis himself told me he didn't intend them for > networking. They were a simple mechanism for pushing line disciplines > onto tty drivers. > > I can't remember exactly what he said, this was back in ~1988 or so > and I was talking to him about the STREAMS stuff. He wasn't very > happy with it and I'm pretty sure he said something like streams > weren't design to mux multiple sources or network connections. > I think he sort of grudgingly gave credit that they made it work > but he seemed to think that it was twisting streams more than they > should be twisted. > > On Wed, Aug 28, 2019 at 08:46:35AM +1000, George Michaelson wrote: > > oh maybe I meant "streams" not "STREAMS" I always got confused if the > > original ritchie spec was upper or lower case. Charles Forsyth coded > > it into the York Uni Vaxen, worked fine. I left shortly after to do > > stuff at UCL, it only came back into my life when at UQ in Australia > > we got an ICL "certified" SYSV host and along side dead technology > > like RFS up it popped (I think ICL had coded an OSI stack we were > > testing) > > > > -G > > > > On Wed, Aug 28, 2019 at 8:40 AM Larry McVoy wrote: > > > > > > Wait, are you arguing for STREAMS over sockets? Dear god, please no. > > > Have you ever used STREAMS (not Ritchies streams, those were OK)? > > > I have. I ported Lachman's STREAMS based TCP/IP stack twice, once > > > to a long since defunct super computer called the ETA-10 and then > > > to SCO Unix. I've got way more STREAMS experience than most people > > > and I can tell you that sockets are WAY WAY better. I get the "it > > > should have just been file I/O" except that I don't. I tried to > > > write a library that let you open up /net/tcp/$host:$port and do > > > I/O like it was a file descriptor. That works for a lot of stuff > > > but I ran into problems quickly. A networking connection is not > > > a file handle. You can make some stuff work but I couldn't figure > > > out how to do all of it. You end up having to do ioctls to handle > > > the stuff that doesn't fit well into the file system name space. > > > I think plan 9 did this sort of thing, maybe Rob can prove me wrong > > > or remember where it didn't match. > > > > > > I do know that STREAMS came back to Solaris, some VP inked a shitty > > > deal with Lachman and bought the rights to the stack. It was slow > > > as molasses in the winter and customers absolutely hated it. Sun > > > got Mentat to redo it for perf but customers still hated it, they > > > understood sockets, everyone else had sockets, they wanted sockets > > > and they got them. Sun put them back and nobody ever asked about > > > STREAMS again. > > > > > > On Wed, Aug 28, 2019 at 08:30:01AM +1000, George Michaelson wrote: > > > > BSD, but with the original STREAMS semantics, not sockets. > > > > > > > > DARPA did us no favours accepting sockets in place of simple file I/O > > > > semantics for networks. > > > > > > > > Newcastle connection put the namespace into > > > > /.../remote-part/path/to/thing which I felt was also good. > > > > > > > > So for me, 7 -> BSD -> got worse for some values of worse > > > > > > > > On Wed, Aug 28, 2019 at 12:56 AM Larry McVoy wrote: > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Aug 26, 2019 at 11:14:45PM -0400, Arthur Krewat wrote: > > > > > > On 8/26/2019 10:45 PM, Larry McVoy wrote: > > > > > > > Which was that the page cache is > > > > > > >*the* cache. There is nothing else. > > > > > > Yeah, I re-read what you wrote a few times after I replied, and > realized > > > > > > what you meant ... eventually ;) > > > > > > > > > > I might be making too big of a deal about it. mmap semantics > mattered > > > > > a lot when SMPs first showed up and main memory was small. It > meant > > > > > that you could have multiple CPUs seeing and working on the same > chunk > > > > > of data at the same time. > > > > > > > > > > It's very similar to way that IOMMUs are exposed to user space > these > > > > > days, enabling virtual machines direct access to the I/O devices. > > > > > > > > > > ZFS breaks that model, the data is all in the ARC and if you mmap > > > > > it they have to bcopy the data out of the ARC, into the page cache > > > > > and now they have a consistency problem, you could modify stuff > > > > > via mmap or write and they have to manage that. > > > > > > > > > > That consistency problem is the main reason that Sun almost > completely > > > > > killed the buffer cache (it still was used for inodes and > directories > > > > > but that was it). That consistency problem is a pain in the rear, > > > > > all sorts of race conditions and it tended to bit rot. > > > > > > > > > > Jeff and Bill are smart people so I suspect they got it right but > I'm > > > > > still stunned that they took such an architecturally bad approach. > > > > > And even more stunned that the oversight people approved it. There > > > > > is zero chance that the Sun I worked at would have allowed that. > > > > > > > > > > --lm > > > > > > -- > > > --- > > > Larry McVoy lm at mcvoy.com > http://www.mcvoy.com/lm > > -- > --- > Larry McVoy lm at mcvoy.com > http://www.mcvoy.com/lm > -- Sent from a handheld expect more typos than usual --0000000000000a89b70591216014 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I had a similar conversation btw.=C2=A0 I liked what= Dennis did to clean up the tty handler but I agree as a networking interfa= ce it was wretched which is what system v did. =C2=A0 =C2=A0At stellar we p= ut in the bbn (walsh2) stack and spliced back in sockets so the bsd code st= ill worked.
That said the idea of trying to keep the= everything is a file semantic was good and streams were closer. The proble= m sockets is they really were not quite The same. =C2=A0=C2=A0
<= div dir=3D"auto">
What I liked about plan 9 was = breaking the control interface out so the file stuff stayed sane. =C2=A0 Bu= t that was a bridge to far for a traditional Unix.=C2=A0


=
On Tue, Aug 27, 2019 at 7:00 PM Larry= McVoy <lm@mcvoy.com> wrote:
<= /div>
streams were OK but Dennis himself told= me he didn't intend them for
networking.=C2=A0 They were a simple mechanism for pushing line disciplines=
onto tty drivers.

I can't remember exactly what he said, this was back in ~1988 or so
and I was talking to him about the STREAMS stuff.=C2=A0 He wasn't very<= br> happy with it and I'm pretty sure he said something like streams
weren't design to mux multiple sources or network connections.
I think he sort of grudgingly gave credit that they made it work
but he seemed to think that it was twisting streams more than they
should be twisted.

On Wed, Aug 28, 2019 at 08:46:35AM +1000, George Michaelson wrote:
> oh maybe I meant "streams" not "STREAMS" I always = got confused if the
> original ritchie spec was upper or lower case. Charles Forsyth coded > it into the York Uni Vaxen, worked fine. I left shortly after to do > stuff at UCL, it only came back into my life when at UQ in Australia > we got an ICL "certified" SYSV host and along side dead tech= nology
> like RFS up it popped (I think ICL had coded an OSI stack we were
> testing)
>
> -G
>
> On Wed, Aug 28, 2019 at 8:40 AM Larry McVoy <lm@mcvoy.com> wrote:
> >
> > Wait, are you arguing for STREAMS over sockets?=C2=A0 Dear god, p= lease no.
> > Have you ever used STREAMS (not Ritchies streams, those were OK)?=
> > I have.=C2=A0 I ported Lachman's STREAMS based TCP/IP stack t= wice, once
> > to a long since defunct super computer called the ETA-10 and then=
> > to SCO Unix.=C2=A0 I've got way more STREAMS experience than = most people
> > and I can tell you that sockets are WAY WAY better.=C2=A0 I get t= he "it
> > should have just been file I/O" except that I don't.=C2= =A0 I tried to
> > write a library that let you open up /net/tcp/$host:$port and do<= br> > > I/O like it was a file descriptor.=C2=A0 That works for a lot of = stuff
> > but I ran into problems quickly.=C2=A0 A networking connection is= not
> > a file handle.=C2=A0 You can make some stuff work but I couldn= 9;t figure
> > out how to do all of it.=C2=A0 =C2=A0You end up having to do ioct= ls to handle
> > the stuff that doesn't fit well into the file system name spa= ce.
> > I think plan 9 did this sort of thing, maybe Rob can prove me wro= ng
> > or remember where it didn't match.
> >
> > I do know that STREAMS came back to Solaris, some VP inked a shit= ty
> > deal with Lachman and bought the rights to the stack.=C2=A0 It wa= s slow
> > as molasses in the winter and customers absolutely hated it.=C2= =A0 Sun
> > got Mentat to redo it for perf but customers still hated it, they=
> > understood sockets, everyone else had sockets, they wanted socket= s
> > and they got them.=C2=A0 Sun put them back and nobody ever asked = about
> > STREAMS again.
> >
> > On Wed, Aug 28, 2019 at 08:30:01AM +1000, George Michaelson wrote= :
> > > BSD, but with the original STREAMS semantics, not sockets. > > >
> > > DARPA did us no favours accepting sockets in place of simple= file I/O
> > > semantics for networks.
> > >
> > > Newcastle connection put the namespace into
> > > /.../remote-part/path/to/thing which I felt was also good. > > >
> > > So for me, 7 -> BSD -> got worse for some values of wo= rse
> > >
> > > On Wed, Aug 28, 2019 at 12:56 AM Larry McVoy <lm@mcvoy.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > On Mon, Aug 26, 2019 at 11:14:45PM -0400, Arthur Krewat= wrote:
> > > > > On 8/26/2019 10:45 PM, Larry McVoy wrote:
> > > > > >=C2=A0 Which was that the page cache is
> > > > > >*the*=C2=A0 cache.=C2=A0 There is nothing else= .
> > > > > Yeah, I re-read what you wrote a few times after I= replied, and realized
> > > > > what you meant ... eventually ;)
> > > >
> > > > I might be making too big of a deal about it.=C2=A0 mma= p semantics mattered
> > > > a lot when SMPs first showed up and main memory was sma= ll.=C2=A0 It meant
> > > > that you could have multiple CPUs seeing and working on= the same chunk
> > > > of data at the same time.
> > > >
> > > > It's very similar to way that IOMMUs are exposed to= user space these
> > > > days, enabling virtual machines direct access to the I/= O devices.
> > > >
> > > > ZFS breaks that model, the data is all in the ARC and i= f you mmap
> > > > it they have to bcopy the data out of the ARC, into the= page cache
> > > > and now they have a consistency problem, you could modi= fy stuff
> > > > via mmap or write and they have to manage that.
> > > >
> > > > That consistency problem is the main reason that Sun al= most completely
> > > > killed the buffer cache (it still was used for inodes a= nd directories
> > > > but that was it).=C2=A0 That consistency problem is a p= ain in the rear,
> > > > all sorts of race conditions and it tended to bit rot.<= br> > > > >
> > > > Jeff and Bill are smart people so I suspect they got it= right but I'm
> > > > still stunned that they took such an architecturally ba= d approach.
> > > > And even more stunned that the oversight people approve= d it.=C2=A0 There
> > > > is zero chance that the Sun I worked at would have allo= wed that.
> > > >
> > > > --lm
> >
> > --
> > ---
> > Larry McVoy=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 lm at mcvoy.com=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0http://w= ww.mcvoy.com/lm

--
---
Larry McVoy=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 l= m at mcvo= y.com=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0http://www.mcvoy.com= /lm
--
Sent from a handheld expect more typos t= han usual
--0000000000000a89b70591216014--