From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HTML_FONT_LOW_CONTRAST,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 30615 invoked from network); 10 May 2022 20:48:05 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (45.79.103.53) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 10 May 2022 20:48:05 -0000 Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id F042A9BCD9; Wed, 11 May 2022 06:48:04 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8EE6F9BA52; Wed, 11 May 2022 06:47:20 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=fail reason="signature verification failed" (1024-bit key; unprotected) header.d=ccc.com header.i=@ccc.com header.b="gmFWz0k6"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 0B46F9BA52; Wed, 11 May 2022 06:47:19 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-qt1-f182.google.com (mail-qt1-f182.google.com [209.85.160.182]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6832F9BA39 for ; Wed, 11 May 2022 06:47:18 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-qt1-f182.google.com with SMTP id t11so14474028qto.11 for ; Tue, 10 May 2022 13:47:18 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ccc.com; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=f0Tf/s+3BZZ44ChZOpomYyElf6QYgmDmPOrk53ZIuW4=; b=gmFWz0k6wJPd3RRtpqIcDkUgD9oUtK8Lj52P+gpyGVjr/aL+w5EydUGEbMcRimV2Oz UPc5d2H6FLf5CGteaxloRNM1au+mFZsadA0IfOCVff4kb6CNWJEy4CB/ICqIDspTjYg+ EscC3l0WcodHKOLRyAGs347eY+QF9Z4A4nZjk= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=f0Tf/s+3BZZ44ChZOpomYyElf6QYgmDmPOrk53ZIuW4=; b=UX6Q5Eb1SOL3F8a0bEl57nr4ZqPmHF5QQgLeLoiqH0YfnKCiX/0o3A+38SW9ZMvKyM bnN9liaGx4eoM6+nTEBQubpEaC2wgfZX6zq2YyELPBs+q1cxDFHdsZOys3wK6cHhZoYy isJPRA9uFUhZZ93TRzi+E35gzI5Xv9cgO6UY8MUuUCuyW5mATBfMWK3y55quLw52JExK oY7RBrDddMlifuSPbIncWnetObTDKSJDgr55BpmaIbZa6VUszjJSPhDljRdAr35RmMbV cpuRAalASoYynNzP9NmX9To7BJlGVsN4bHX/rsqsosvTf7aVX8mdsZ36phtXxKtQm3PV hy9w== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533M+CdEE/xYyd/Qy8k/YZbPWvc3UNhGXfwai3Km9ESG2jK4PFYR I9d7omiFCHrfpqtxqQif/Iq+P4oG4nQQMeR+AzqDpg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzGk76GkXooRDIc3abeESeax1VakIByE6UdwUa5Dyk3hagXbBsDcu5amagyfpzzL9tX0BF+/TucCFIBRzzis7k= X-Received: by 2002:a05:622a:138d:b0:2f3:b935:9d55 with SMTP id o13-20020a05622a138d00b002f3b9359d55mr21264714qtk.112.1652215637265; Tue, 10 May 2022 13:47:17 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <57977CE7-DDCC-4861-BBD2-843B9B9F51C2@ronnatalie.com> <1505232b-86bd-0d65-52c7-c8d19bd0663c@mhorton.net> In-Reply-To: From: Clem Cole Date: Tue, 10 May 2022 16:46:50 -0400 Message-ID: To: Richard Salz Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000026dfcf05deae6e13" Subject: Re: [TUHS] First Unix-like OSes not derived from AT&T code? X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: TUHS main list Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" --00000000000026dfcf05deae6e13 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable a couple of small additions/corrections .... On Tue, May 10, 2022 at 3:34 PM Richard Salz wrote: > Per wikipedia (FWIW), V7M was for PDP-11; Ultrix was the first VAX unix > project and based on 4.2BSD. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultrix > Not quite... Indeed, V7M was a >>source<< distribution for the 11 - Fred Cantor and Bill Shannon were the primary hackers on same - actually]. I want to say that 1980 maybe 1981. This was available to any AT&T source licensee - using the traditional rules [Warren has it -- it actually is easier to get running on a PiDP-11 than the basic V7 distribution -- its supports more devices out of the box].. The key is that V7m booted on more systems out of the box than V7 and also it has Shannon's overlay code in it [which would eventually make its way in 2.X BSD]. Ultrix was the first VAX release of Ultrix that Armando and Bill shepherded using 4.1BSD, but Fred did the first Ultrix-11 also which was somewhere between 2.X BSD and V7m *and was a binary release*. Ultrix was the formal name of DEC's first UNIX a product. BTW: A number of the drivers from Ultrix went back to Merrimack via Shannon to CSRG. At the time ~82, I had the only pure DEC 780 at UCB [which DEC had donated to the CAD group] so Sam and I debugged the TU78 driver from Ultrix on the now burgeoning 4.1A on the UCBCAD machine 'coke' - with remote help from Bill. I don't remember all the differences but my system had a fully loaded I/O system and Shannon's system back in MKO did not. I think Sam must have rewritten the configuration support code a few times during that process. That said, that driver and device support may not have been released in the BSD stream until the 4.2BSD stuff was folded in. Famously, Bill Munson announced Ultrix at an early 1980s USENIX, reminding everyone that it meant Fortran, Cobol and the like would be coming too. Paul W and his mates in the Languages group had to do all sorts of stuff to make that so. I believe Paul has previously extolled us with moving the VMS linker over to the Unix to support at least Fortran. FYI, Sun does not yet exist (Shannon is still working for Munson in NH). At some point, Ultrix went to the PMAX (after Armando moved to Palo Alto and Shannon had left for Sun). Interesting tidbit, Ultrix was used to debug the Alpha and was the first OS that ran on it. History has shown the stupidity of not releasing that as a product [cost at least 4 years of revenue but I digress]. It's about the time of the original Ultrix work is when I stopped paying attention to the PDP-11s, so there are gaps in my knowledge. Ultrix definitely was released as a binary product for the 11. My >>memory<< is the first version for the Vax was 4.1 based with some new defined support and languages, but that version may not have gone too far outside of DEC and until the 4.2BSD version was the first one for revenue. The first Ultrix-11 was V7+some set of BSDisms. I know Shannon's overlay code went to UCB, but I'm not so sure when the BSD 11 changes came back to DEC. > Armando Stettner is probably most famous for the NH license plate "Ultrix= " > No, he had the NH UNIX plate [on his Z-Car] not Ultrix, and he later sold it to Maddog when he moved to DEC Palo Alto. His Plate was the model for the famous DEC license plate [note I've had the Mass plate since '83 and I believe I am the only person that ever had it -- it's been a number of cars since - currently on my Model S. > The NH state motto, which appeared on all their license plates, was "Live > Free or Die" > Still does. As does the Old Man on the Mountain even though it's long gone. =E1=90=A7 --00000000000026dfcf05deae6e13 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

a couple of small additions/corrections= ....

On Tue, May 10, 2022 at 3:34 PM Richard Salz <rich.salz@gmail.com> wrote:
Per wikipedia (FWIW), V7M was for PDP-11; Ultrix was the first VAX = unix project and based on 4.2BSD.=C2=A0 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultrix
Not quite...=C2= =A0 Indeed, V7M was a >>source<< distribution for the 11 - Fred= Cantor and Bill Shannon were the primary hackers on same - actually].
I want to say that 1980 maybe 1981. This= was available to any AT&T source licensee - using the traditional rule= s [Warren has it -- it actually is easier to get running on a PiDP-11 than = the basic V7 distribution -- its supports more devices out of the box]..=C2= =A0 =C2=A0The key is that V7m booted on more systems out of the box than V7= and also it has Shannon's overlay code in it [which would eventually m= ake its way in 2.X BSD].

=
Ultrix was the first VAX release of Ultrix= that Armando and Bill shepherded using 4.1BSD, but Fred did the first Ultr= ix-11 also which was somewhere between 2.X BSD and V7m and was a binary = release. Ultrix was the formal name of DEC's first UNIX a product.= =C2=A0BTW: A number of the drivers from Ultrix went back to Merrimack via S= hannon to CSRG.=C2=A0 At the time ~82, I had the only pure DEC 780 at UCB [= which DEC had donated to the CAD group] so Sam and I debugged the TU78 driv= er from Ultrix on the now burgeoning 4.1A on the UCBCAD machine 'coke&#= 39; - with remote help from Bill. I don't remember=C2=A0all=C2=A0the di= fferences but my system had a fully loaded I/O system and Shannon's sys= tem back in MKO did not.=C2=A0 =C2=A0I think Sam must have rewritten the co= nfiguration support code a few times during that process.=C2=A0 That said, = that driver and device support may not have been released in the BSD stream= until the 4.2BSD stuff was folded in.

Famously, Bill Munson announ= ced Ultrix at an early 1980s USENIX, reminding=C2=A0everyone=C2=A0that it m= eant Fortran, Cobol and the like would be coming too.=C2=A0 Paul W and his = mates in the Languages group had to do all sorts of stuff to make that so.= =C2=A0 I believe Paul has previously extolled us with moving the VMS linker= over to the Unix to support at least Fortran.=C2=A0 FYI, Sun does not yet = exist (Shannon is still working for Munson in NH).=C2=A0=C2=A0
=

At s= ome point, Ultrix went to the PMAX (after Armando moved to Palo Alto and Sh= annon had left for Sun).=C2=A0 =C2=A0Interesting tidbit, Ultrix was used to= debug the Alpha and was the first OS that ran on it.=C2=A0 =C2=A0History h= as shown the stupidity of not releasing that as a product [cost at least 4 = years of revenue but I digress].
It's about the time of the ori= ginal Ultrix work is when I stopped paying attention to the PDP-11s, so the= re are gaps in my knowledge.=C2=A0 Ultrix definitely was released as a bina= ry product for the 11.=C2=A0 My >>memory<< is the first version= for the Vax was 4.1 based with some new defined support and languages, but= that version may not have gone too far outside of DEC and until the 4.2BSD= version was the first one for revenue.=C2=A0 =C2=A0The first Ultrix-11 was= V7+some set of BSDisms.=C2=A0 =C2=A0I know Shannon's overlay code went= to UCB, but I'm not so sure when the BSD 11 changes came back to DEC.<= /font>




Armando Stettner is probably = most famous for the NH license plate "Ultrix"=C2=A0
No, he had the NH UNIX pla= te [on his Z-Car] not=C2=A0Ultrix, and he later sold it to Maddog when he m= oved to DEC Palo Alto.=C2=A0 His Plate was the model for the famous DEC lic= ense=C2=A0plate [note I've had the Mass plate since '83 and I belie= ve I am the only person that ever had it -- it's been a number of cars = since - currently on my Model S.

=C2=A0
The NH state motto, which appeared on all their license plates,= was "Live Free or Die"
3D""=E1=90=A7
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