From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,HTML_FONT_LOW_CONTRAST,HTML_MESSAGE, MAILING_LIST_MULTI,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [45.79.103.53]) by inbox.vuxu.org (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id f97b377f for ; Wed, 16 Jan 2019 17:15:23 +0000 (UTC) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 49CE494FD4; Thu, 17 Jan 2019 03:15:22 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0503794FB9; Thu, 17 Jan 2019 03:15:01 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=fail reason="signature verification failed" (1024-bit key; unprotected) header.d=ccc.com header.i=@ccc.com header.b="n84Nn+2t"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id CFF7A94FB9; Thu, 17 Jan 2019 03:14:58 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-wm1-f54.google.com (mail-wm1-f54.google.com [209.85.128.54]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E294794FB8 for ; Thu, 17 Jan 2019 03:14:57 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-wm1-f54.google.com with SMTP id r24so1552281wmh.0 for ; Wed, 16 Jan 2019 09:14:57 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ccc.com; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=y02LGuwd5EpnFyQQagyRPb42HiDj2GeRRzubUYDKHWU=; b=n84Nn+2tAs1gjR28p/s1Q879s4rd/2+Zv6e7geK0IGA7S1O1YTOKwSyIxG4Udblzhh ojDKA16DxojglFcV7H7nm0PnWJgRsje5G+mTFsvH0lrvVjNo5kt/9uNNs/1TRyurZYWV oQfoqBVVHnPcbEKaRM22mB6JyfTc4hPhOU7zk= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=y02LGuwd5EpnFyQQagyRPb42HiDj2GeRRzubUYDKHWU=; b=iB58pQvxrPqFp5t4VhF12O6vTbDkKQ7UGdpeoTuT/Qjl9YBosHOtc8f9ozjW/9bcyz dAzuGXS1vTHONvNkjs4CRbDPRggb2KUDoe3cURJpkVyn3MsrWyxz7W24B0AES12W3Q6h pgC2/otIqBfi4Jh1807H/Wy3WhUo80Xg7doPH2CHSx9QGfZbvttU3X2sLG/M+5odMlvd GUqBwvRoUoHhijzh6oWR/FNSgMamta7Fsfsiyym5WkaenCJYKsJZeBz8np1YhxlrDORz IOonFFLO/Ut+VfzWQ+sfFGAmJU/5viOCiy9uH7QWQSxT9XEBmyabhZS6efPYw4gR649w X9ew== X-Gm-Message-State: AJcUukf7LcWUrDe0+S75ejtvXKVCqt0EXqToXX65D8t13RBXUqt5Xac+ ZattWghKBOUeZT1qmC/Yp4PF1yt1qtTaCK2K8jKwKA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ALg8bN4FKr2Xynuhhzqs3O2lAHbrISI1IJ1R3Uj3mF3+LF7EanZZa1W1izhSLzYLd6Qn5dXNxvsjKF1FcxTKz4AKzZc= X-Received: by 2002:a1c:a895:: with SMTP id r143mr7956830wme.95.1547658896247; Wed, 16 Jan 2019 09:14:56 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Clem Cole Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2019 12:14:30 -0500 Message-ID: To: Paul Winalski Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000beaa6c057f966a05" Subject: Re: [TUHS] DEC and Dave Cutler (was Re: The John Snow's of the UNIX family) X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" --000000000000beaa6c057f966a05 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Jan 16, 2019 at 11:55 AM Paul Winalski wrote: > ... Cutler excelled in getting V1 of something out the door. He never > stayed around for V2 of anything. He had a tendency to leave > messes behind him. A Cutler product reminded me of the intro to "The Pea= bodys" > segment of Rocky & Bullwinkle. A big elaborate procession, > followed by someone cleaning up the mess with a broom. > One of the first times I met him, was during an argument that Fossil remarked to something like: 'Dave, why do you care. You'll be doing something else and these guys have to make it work.' I've never forgotten the look DC gave Roger. He was (is) just not good at listening. And that is to me, the best example of his arrogance. He was quick to point out other's bad ideas; but I don't think he ever looked back and said -- "We'll that was a bad idea *I made*. *I (even we) called that one wrong*." That said, to Dave's credit by the time of Tru64 and he had left for MSFT, everything at DEC had to be 'perfect' before it would ship. And thus things were late or never made it out the door. DC's magic was getting to the nut of the problem and getting what people cared about implemented quickly and out for users to try it. The problem was his scheme, was that he was never part of the team that fixed it later. I think I would have had more respect if he had quickly gotten the product out and then said, 'ok, we took these short cuts. Let's fix them' But as you pointed out, Dave never seems to see them as short cuts. He was 'done.' And when I think about engineers that I really respect, are the ones that can get the first version out the door with that want matters, then work as to polish it and make them better. This means listening to the users and other developers and really taking input from other people. i.e. listening= . Clem =E1=90=A7 --000000000000beaa6c057f966a05 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Wed, = Jan 16, 2019 at 11:55 AM Paul Winalski <paul.winalski@gmail.com> wrote:
...=C2= =A0Cutler excelled in getting V1 of something out the door.=C2=A0 He never stayed ar= ound for V2 of anything.=C2=A0 He had a tendency to leave
messes behind him.=C2=A0 A Cutler product reminded me of the intro to "= ;The Peabodys" segment of Rocky & Bullwinkle.=C2=A0 A b= ig elaborate procession,
followed by someone cleaning up the mess with a broom.

One of the first times I met h= im, was during an argument that Fossil remarked to something like: 'Dav= e, why do you care.=C2=A0 You'll be doing something else and these guys= have to make it work.'=C2=A0 =C2=A0I've never forgotten the look D= C gave Roger.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0He was (is) just not good at = listening.=C2=A0 And that is to me, the best example of his arrogance.=C2= =A0He was quick to point out othe= r's bad ideas; but=C2=A0I don= 't think he ever looked back and said -- "We'll that was a bad= idea I made.=C2=A0 I (even we) called that one wrong."=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0
That said, to Dave's credit by= the time of Tru64 and he had left for MSFT, everything at DEC had to be &#= 39;perfect' before it would ship. And thus things were late or never ma= de it out the door.=C2=A0 =C2=A0DC's magic was getting to the nut of th= e problem and getting what people cared about implemented quickly and out f= or users to try it.=C2=A0 The problem was his scheme, was that he was never= part of the team that fixed it later.=C2=A0 =C2=A0 I think I would have ha= d more respect if he had quickly gotten the product out and then said, '= ;ok, we took these short cuts.=C2=A0 Let's fix them'=C2=A0 But as y= ou pointed out, Dave never seems to see them as short cuts.=C2=A0 He was &#= 39;done.'=C2=A0

And when I think about engineers that I really = respect, are the ones that can get the first version out the door with that= want matters, then work as to polish it and make them better.=C2=A0 This m= eans listening to the users and other developers and really taking input fr= om other people.=C2=A0 i.e. listening.

Clem
3D""=E1=90=A7
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