From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HTML_FONT_LOW_CONTRAST,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 17314 invoked from network); 10 Apr 2021 15:14:05 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (45.79.103.53) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 10 Apr 2021 15:14:05 -0000 Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id C512493DC8; Sun, 11 Apr 2021 01:14:02 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ADFEC93D6B; Sun, 11 Apr 2021 01:13:24 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=fail reason="signature verification failed" (1024-bit key; unprotected) header.d=ccc.com header.i=@ccc.com header.b="DNab/oan"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 29C9493D6B; Sun, 11 Apr 2021 01:13:19 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-qt1-f175.google.com (mail-qt1-f175.google.com [209.85.160.175]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5FAED93D69 for ; Sun, 11 Apr 2021 01:13:18 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-qt1-f175.google.com with SMTP id g14so2399098qtu.8 for ; Sat, 10 Apr 2021 08:13:18 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ccc.com; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=L2vMD//NCnt2JJcuLePUQvzlfs9xXx/W8NGFA8gHPBw=; b=DNab/oanbkFvFqv/y8NXpUQGb3POSUDpKQIiW8iZaqmnxHbxy9rEtGMPeXqwavW0Hx yEkyLDqGmPcGhewgqQgpn/padVw1fKQAiD0f4FKp4IU2OEbW6kv9YvrdRSHBbPX8NfMS Cqnpsdu/WjIdekm9CNYhcWR0LBITrkfXq6OKk= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=L2vMD//NCnt2JJcuLePUQvzlfs9xXx/W8NGFA8gHPBw=; b=QxZZIiSFoI2m5eJRlraM/dadbaP61OHLtBAyffB3T83GOmiuOkaVUCnCK1v6IQmhmi Q/5pr9rWP1ek/uyhBgpFjfIgbgwH9uYsClpObx1ucNcRRvyc8dZzz9zMd28jaDfmDuoi Nj72VGOY4uSHZxvnLU7mlOtc4FF4bb8VB9L+PHUmXHXQSUGMYu9hNJDtA0JXZrg+zDpx 0wLoKKx598F/pU3vq/VHY61cg5krEUL6sOMbUyCtdhq+WCE+hNUehwmxILUHXof2jQve Sh5xt3Bg+ZlzkN77mlDh1m1WA7O2ZSPJdfCHRs/4TCc5mVMUkkdvFCep5N9mZROxyKFm sLhA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532EWn1AHMTZDoFhmVuwahVrFEqSIDDsW0W2wrEP1pEdmkp5R0Q/ CeOsP69gAf8Rv2uKl2Yg+JQdl7WEdI2UIDNIDB3pyQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwlDcpD6rW1txhiMOSkqW0bA0kTBcMw9F9ZlIvd5Jd6+Gw2uAFZUNBWi3jv6LQn55C6mAND7FY8h3QbwyaDpUg= X-Received: by 2002:ac8:1192:: with SMTP id d18mr7936329qtj.253.1618067597382; Sat, 10 Apr 2021 08:13:17 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Clem Cole Date: Sat, 10 Apr 2021 11:12:51 -0400 Message-ID: To: Ed Bradford Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000005d684105bf9fb801" Subject: Re: [TUHS] PC Unix (had been How to Kill a Technical Conference X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" --0000000000005d684105bf9fb801 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Apr 9, 2021 at 11:34 PM Ed Bradford wrote: > Why did a Ph.D., an academic, and a computer scientist not know about UNI= X > in 1974 or so? 1976? In 1976, some (many?) universities had source code. > Some knowns/givens at the time ... 1.) He was a language/compiler type person -- he had created PL/M and that was really what he was originally trying to show off. As I understand it and has been reported in other interviews, originally CP/M was an attempt to show off what you could do with PL/M. 2.) The 8080/Z80 S-100 style machines we quite limited, they had very little memory, no MMU, and extremely limited storage in the 8" floppies 3.) He was familiar with RT/11 and DOS-11, many Universities had it on smaller PDP-11s as they ran on an 11/20 without an MMU also with limited memory, and often used simple (primarily tape) storage (DECtape and Cassette's) as the default 'laboratory' system, replacing the earlier PDP-8 for the same job which primarily ran DOS-8 in those settings. 4.) Fifth and Sixth Edition of Unix was $150 for university but to run it, it took a larger at least 11/40 or 45, with a minimum of 64Kbytes to boot and really need the full 256Kbytes to run acceptably and the cost of a 2.5M byte RK05 disk was much greater per byte than tape -- thus the base system it took to run it was at least $60K (in 1975 dollars) and typically cost about two to four times that in practice. Remember the cost of acquisition of the HW dominated many (most) choices. *I**'ll take a guess, but it is only that.* I *suspect* he saw the S-100 system as closer to a PDP-11/20 'lab' system than as a small timesharing machine. He set out with CP/M to duplication the functionality from RT/11. He even the naming of the commands was the same as what DEC used (*e.g.* PIP) and used the basic DEC style command syntax and parsing rules. > > Bill Joy, where are you? > Some of us, know how to find him. I know that at least at one time, was made aware of this mailing list and have been invited to join it. It is his choice to not be a part. =E1=90=A7 --0000000000005d684105bf9fb801 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On F= ri, Apr 9, 2021 at 11:34 PM Ed Bradford <egbegb2@gmail.com> wrote:
Why did a Ph.D= ., an academic, and a computer scientist not know about UNIX in 1974 or so?= 1976? In 1976, some (many?) universities had source code.=C2=A0
=

Some knowns/givens at the time ...
1.) He was a language/compiler type person -- he h= ad created PL/M and that was really what he was originally trying to show o= ff.=C2=A0 As I understand it and has been reported in other interviews, ori= ginally CP/M was an attempt to show off what you could do with PL/M.=
2.) The 8080/Z80 S-100 style = machines we quite limited, they had very little memory, no MMU, and extreme= ly limited storage in the 8" floppies
3.) He was familiar=C2=A0with RT/11 and DOS-11, many Un= iversities had it on smaller PDP-11s as they ran on an 11/20 without an MMU= also with limited memory, and often used simple (primarily tape) storage (= DECtape and Cassette's) as the default 'laboratory' system, rep= lacing the earlier PDP-8 for the same job which primarily ran DOS-8 in thos= e settings.
4.) Fifth a= nd Sixth=C2=A0Edition of Unix was $150 for university=C2=A0but to run it, i= t took a larger at least 11/40 or 45, with a minimum of 64Kbytes to boot an= d really need the full 256Kbytes to run acceptably and the cost of a 2.5M b= yte RK05 disk was much greater per byte than tape -- thus the base system i= t took to run it was at least $60K (in 1975 dollars) and typically cost abo= ut two to four times that in practice.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Remember the cost of acq= uisition of the HW dominated many (most) choices.
<= font color=3D"#0000ff">
I'll take a guess, but it is only that.=C2=A0 I = suspect he saw the S-100 system as closer to a PDP-11/20 'lab= 9; system than as a small timesharing=C2=A0machine.=C2=A0 He set out with C= P/M to duplication the functionality from RT/11.=C2=A0 He even the naming o= f the commands was the same as what DEC used (e.g. PIP) and used the= basic DEC style command syntax and parsing rules.
<= div>
=C2=A0

Bill Joy, where are you?
<= font color=3D"#0000ff">Some of us, know how to find him.=C2=A0 I know that at least at one time, was=C2=A0ma= de aware of this mailing list and have been invited to join it.=C2=A0 It is= his choice to not be a part.
3D""=E1=90= =A7
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