From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [45.79.103.53]) by inbox.vuxu.org (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id 2ce29c9a for ; Sun, 15 Sep 2019 20:12:59 +0000 (UTC) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 0F4B19BD5A; Mon, 16 Sep 2019 06:12:58 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 772EA9BA1C; Mon, 16 Sep 2019 06:12:47 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=fail reason="signature verification failed" (1024-bit key; unprotected) header.d=ccc.com header.i=@ccc.com header.b="X6rceWEx"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 31F169BA1C; Mon, 16 Sep 2019 06:12:46 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-wm1-f68.google.com (mail-wm1-f68.google.com [209.85.128.68]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C22C493D07 for ; Mon, 16 Sep 2019 06:12:44 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-wm1-f68.google.com with SMTP id m3so7878518wmc.5 for ; Sun, 15 Sep 2019 13:12:44 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ccc.com; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=SvWpHChh5vqoUK7U+18Hl/NG96MJXwD43LogZeODmPI=; b=X6rceWExzNItucZLC+1rO/A4YgjNlt6I3mPWQrdQJny72gJsCLdwnOsdS15EsUlDa6 LfczQAIUiqRo2P5cVX2QNUiqst5JmIy3AYwQJuL0tlBGedLTP3x5t6jfRlV+HeyqnYC7 zrRFahQfG7xrpz9BgA6Dyf/2UfVQlHlc1lceA= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=SvWpHChh5vqoUK7U+18Hl/NG96MJXwD43LogZeODmPI=; b=U1E3f574kh7c/BAhT4LJQXrHKtpU6yS77R9CxBx8scH5DQCY6cxx2y7AylYikDPM/K EbG1RJ3O9yzbh6GaLg+8fpVnbImuFFcGcIGoxkLii5SAhKuxXJwLJfFCurn9AXVFVNuj ZqF3u/iama2jF4uQg8vaeu60lcPIU5+g+jxB8tmFHK6mxtnKtHHEL/pksdDWh8LEJqjC +VjdbhNFm61X4ShcfuQB87h8L8ucvHe06XYYAJvVz85msk5vqk3Hki61oytQ+/wedOed ShZg1yeMMAOlQzrEHjNITaSoPY1Ty5fKKxrpH4qtjOT5HVOEnpJRjgRPTQrQjiY6+FfI 0VxQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWoyM3nVespueVuF+klevlx4PrU46FLT3KHMWZaK9yKKU9nKFjX n7UccIXeekWYrGTtsWY/SwCCgplzE9IcCPous4CZDQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqyZdqpQdigHzmMv0BJ8AJMZcBblXnqz9ZlrVCcf5+4TCAvatND/eV4eCezliyz7k0jzf4xarM6B583drNIfXE4= X-Received: by 2002:a1c:f317:: with SMTP id q23mr11025041wmq.33.1568578363266; Sun, 15 Sep 2019 13:12:43 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Clem Cole Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2019 16:12:17 -0400 Message-ID: To: Eric Allman Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000025320705929d1c0c" Subject: Re: [TUHS] a book (was Re: PWB vs Unix/TS) X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" --00000000000025320705929d1c0c Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Sun, Sep 15, 2019 at 12:16 AM Eric Allman wrote: > On 2019-09-14 17:58, Adam Thornton wrote: > > I...have never been all that impressed with Salus's work. It's not > _bad_ but it's also not terribly insightful. > I think Peter's work was an amazing effort to collect and disseminate > facts, and despite a few gaps (inevitable) he did a great job. But > Peter's works were more collections of facts than attempts to interpret, > contextualize, or otherwise put the facts into a larger narrative. +1 Amen, bro. For many of us that lived the time he covered, which was the first 25 years, it's awesome and frankly, I don't look for it for insights, as that was to me not what he was after doing. He was trying to create a narrative that documented what happened. Yes, he left things out, but pretty much go it right. > Honest historians can disagree on the role of written histories. A pure > "just the facts ma'am" history avoids context and interpretation but > tends to be fairly dry. This was Peter's approach. I agree. Moreover, as Jon points out, I'm not sure even if was made widely available, other than people like those on this list, I'm not sure it will be really that interesting. > But it's impossible to completely avoid bias because you have to pick and choose the facts you include. And this is the biggest issue. And I have observed (maybe I'm wrong - but it seems to me ...) that the people that I know today, that dislike Peter's work dislike that Linux is not huge part of it. Or more importantly that it was the emergence of the *Internet and UNIX that were enablers for Linux*. As Jon has suggested, it should not be Gnu/Linux but rather Internet/Linux. Contextualizing history inevitably leads to interpretation > which leads to some amount of bias, but interesting or even gripping > histories read like a novel that unfolds before you. *i.e.* Peter is not David McCullough and we don't seem to have David coming to us to write his next book. I've believed for a long time that when the definitive history of Unix > is written, Peter's books will be a major (albeit not "primary", in the > technical sense) source material. Absolutely. It needs to be the place where a historian starts. I salute him for all his hard (and early) work. I hope that someone will > step up to do this larger history (much of which happened after Peter's > publication dates) before we all die off. +1 A louder *amen*.... > And I have to say, It looks like Warner's research (with all the > abundant help from this group) the last week or two is amazing. I agree - as much as I offered some additions and corrections it is well done -- thank you, Warner. > .... I deeply regret that I never had an opportunity to meet Joe Ossanna. Indeed. --00000000000025320705929d1c0c Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On S= un, Sep 15, 2019 at 12:16 AM Eric Allman <tuhs@eric.allman.name> wrote:
On 2019-09-1= 4 17:58, Adam Thornton wrote:
> I...have never been all that impressed with Salus's work.=C2=A0 It= 's not _bad_ but it's also not terribly insightful.
I think Peter's work was an amazing effort to collect and disseminate
facts, and despite a few gaps (inevitable) he did a great job.=C2=A0 But
Peter's works were more collections of facts than attempts to interpret= ,
contextualize, or otherwise put the facts into a larger narrative.
+1 Amen, bro.
For many of us that lived the time he covered, which w= as the first 25 years, it's awesome and frankly, I don't look for i= t for insights, as that was to me not what he was after doing.=C2=A0 He was= trying to create a narrative=C2=A0that documented what happened.=C2=A0 =C2= =A0Yes, he left things out, but pretty much go it right.
Honest historians can disagree on the role of written histories.=C2=A0 A pu= re
"just the facts ma'am" history avoids context and interpretat= ion but
tends to be fairly dry.=C2=A0 This was Peter's approach.=C2=A0 <= /blockquote>
I agree.=C2=A0 Moreover, as Jon= points out, I'm not sure even if was made widely available, other than= people like those on this list, I'm not sure it will be really that in= teresting.

=C2=A0
But it's impossible to completely avoid bias because yo= u have to pick and=C2=A0
choose the facts you include.=C2=A0
And this is the biggest issue.=C2=A0 And I have obse= rved (maybe I'm wrong - but it seems to me ...) that the people that I = know today, that dislike Peter's work dislike that Linux is not huge pa= rt of it.=C2=A0=C2=A0 Or more importantly that it was the emerge= nce of the Internet and UNIX that were enablers for Linux.=C2=A0 =C2= =A0As Jon has suggested, it should not be Gnu/Linux but=C2=A0rather Interne= t/Linux.

Contextualizing history inevitabl= y leads to interpretation
which leads to some amount of bias, but interesting or even gripping=
histories read like a novel that unfolds before you.
= i.e. Peter is not David McCullough and we do= n't seem to have David coming to us to write his next book.

I've believed for a long ti= me that when the definitive history of Unix
is written, Peter's books will be a major (albeit not "primary&quo= t;, in the
technical sense) source material.
Absolutely.=C2=A0 It needs to be the place where a historian star= ts.

I salute him for all his hard (and = early) work.=C2=A0 I hope that someon= e will step=C2=A0
up to do this larger history (much of which happened after Peter's p= ublication
dates) before we all die off.
+1 A louder amen....
And I have to say, It looks like Warner's research (with all the=
abundant help from this group) the last week or two is amazing.=C2=A0
I agree - as much as I offere= d some additions and corrections it is well done -- thank you, Warner.

=C2=A0
.... I deeply regret that I never had an opportunity to meet J= oe Ossanna.
Indeed.=C2=A0
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