From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HTML_FONT_LOW_CONTRAST,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 30514 invoked from network); 3 Jan 2023 21:49:12 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (50.116.15.146) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 3 Jan 2023 21:49:12 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC0CC42522; Wed, 4 Jan 2023 07:48:49 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-vs1-f53.google.com (mail-vs1-f53.google.com [209.85.217.53]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0BD0242521 for ; Wed, 4 Jan 2023 07:48:46 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-vs1-f53.google.com with SMTP id a66so33136331vsa.6 for ; Tue, 03 Jan 2023 13:48:45 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ccc.com; s=google; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=W3m20YTq8zuz2ytxrhzkoOq6SE8zCRj1hqLgOmB0jw0=; b=rq8StFEVYj6Ow1DNTeEyqfZOIy2Eh1hMPYNKvye4NCEiJck3py2ban/gak8skvOi95 jK4yELRMhV5td7i2+r6hpTZOO+QYQg7UdY0hGOdKF7vsNUWv7M5CUwlC7GSd8w/YMeUv 7oh2975KAZwnflz+mAbMQX361of/rEdS6QzXw= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=W3m20YTq8zuz2ytxrhzkoOq6SE8zCRj1hqLgOmB0jw0=; b=KRmznWslaP82XrgDje+rR0VxgeirQ1GyZUy4J+WPwIEUX6OJs8/XbvGYW1FVk9Cgf0 1Qm1QxCVj96ya2l5R+6n5QPpL3a/b6ggz7yMvHVvbncmTpzNR818xqZRvHzblbG3M1Ju ec6OQLlLHZwUEWZtvfE7xnhA15H+LbAc/AfBfjvaKd5J3gfqnc0GQoYN+UDZ2Z0Pvkkc RvUO5cUo/qlXUXYSpu+gEH89dCpsZA3wxbcSyjR/2twMVba+2VPC2cb9GfwqyXZpURUI qw3Y/pd8OvEMxGlbCWLwCHt2al0tGL+EHjroNIkG73b8TtOMmFbOc+f03gGV5Su1vmp0 SZpw== X-Gm-Message-State: AFqh2kqXZ5QgimHmYJZjh+wvSSlwRpOPr8TnF5tPDpTgl43ua1qXACMY 0QIsPXcv0gSfiEP6mayvAX70rFp+GTtvpqII3/TMiQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AMrXdXtDBWxvUH/RSEu3UrLsR8Qm6/Qv9icvOntL+r+TivtvpgwN+oxIeF9iVkx/ULuZRudR02d3/Uf1MLz4eV4DoaM= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6102:2227:b0:3b5:25d7:ecf6 with SMTP id d7-20020a056102222700b003b525d7ecf6mr4128918vsb.52.1672782464810; Tue, 03 Jan 2023 13:47:44 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <52FB6638-AEFF-4A4F-8C2E-32089D577BA0@planet.nl> <464819f0-d2f6-2a60-6481-a194f4428b4d@case.edu> <20221230200246.GW5825@mcvoy.com> <88f83b4c-b3f9-ed87-b2fa-560fb369742a@makerlisp.com> <20221231035931.GG5825@mcvoy.com> <528f0c53-ccc2-88a1-5a7b-120362c648dd@mhorton.net> <20230102165120.GK25547@mcvoy.com> In-Reply-To: From: Clem Cole Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2023 16:47:18 -0500 Message-ID: To: Warner Losh Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000009a167305f1630416" Message-ID-Hash: G3WU7KMKCZ4P2FIMIOEJH5N465TPWUTS X-Message-ID-Hash: G3WU7KMKCZ4P2FIMIOEJH5N465TPWUTS X-MailFrom: clemc@ccc.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; header-match-tuhs.tuhs.org-0; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: A few comments on porting the Bourne shell List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: --0000000000009a167305f1630416 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bring this back to TUHS relevance... On Tue, Jan 3, 2023 at 2:43 PM Warner Losh wrote: > The one caveat here is that people must understand the warning and that > any change makes things better. There is nothing worse than just tossing = a > cast in to brute force it, only to later discover it's the wrong cast or > you needed a different semantic change. > Most certainly -- It's why I >>loved<< Gimpel's flex-e-lint product and as Paul pointed out, Judy Ward's messages from the DEC Gem compiler - both were the two best I ever ran into in giving you real information about what was happening. I also tell a story from my DEC time. After the GEM compiler was released and before most other vendors were 64-bits, the ISVs were first starting to do their ports to Alpha. My complaining ensued. We would discover from numerous ISVs that after the Alpha port was complete, their bug count dropped - why because the ISV's code has been kinda nasty and the older compilers had been silent about it they had assumed the ILP32 model. Alphas, using LP64, could not be. Judy would find things and say -- what a minute -- you want me to do what with that and issued a fairly detailed warning (which was the key - she explained what the issue was). Often the 32 to 64-bit nature forced the programmers at the ISV's to rethink how ther= e were actually declaring things to make the code clearer, simpler, better, *etc*. The classic rewrite never happens unless you are forced too. I remember going to a Supercomputer conference and talking with the developers at one the ISVs who I will not name. He thanks me. He said his team has been arguing with their management for years to redo the UNIX support library. The Tru64 port was what finally allowed them to do it. But it took 9 months which pissed off his boss. But when it was completed, and pass all the tests on the Alpha, it just recompiled on Solaris, AIX, and HP-UX - which had never happened before. He could not believe what a great compiler we had. I've always said the Alpha was the greatest gift to Sun and Intel in the commercial SW world because it forced the ISV to clean up their act before they ever saw those processors and Sun/Intel ports were piece of cake. It was not that porting to Alpha was difficult -- it was cleaning up your own mess. Remember we had already gone through this in the PDP-11 ILP16 to Vax ILP32 transition but it is funny how history repeated itself. =E1=90=A7 --0000000000009a167305f1630416 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Bring this back to = TUHS relevance...

On Tue, Jan 3, 2023 at 2:43 PM Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com> wrote:
The one caveat = here is that people must understand the warning and that any change makes t= hings better. There is nothing worse than just tossing a cast in to brute f= orce it, only to later discover it's the wrong cast or you needed a dif= ferent semantic change.=C2=A0
Most ce= rtainly --=C2=A0 =C2=A0It's why I >>loved<< Gimpel's fl= ex-e-lint product and as Paul pointed out, Judy Ward's messages=C2=A0fr= om the DEC Gem compiler - both were the two best I ever ran into in giving= =C2=A0you real information about what was happening.
<= br>
I also tell a story from my DEC time.=C2=A0 =C2=A0= After the GEM compiler was released and before most other vendors were 64-b= its, the ISVs=C2=A0were first starting to do their ports to Alpha.=C2=A0 = =C2=A0My=C2=A0complaining ensued.=C2=A0We=C2=A0would discover from= numerous ISVs that after the Alpha port was complete, their bug count drop= ped - why because the ISV's code has been kinda nasty and th= e older compilers=C2=A0had been=C2=A0silent about it they h= ad assumed the ILP32 model.=C2=A0 Alphas, using LP64, could not = be. =C2=A0Judy would find things and say -- what a minute -- you wan= t me to do what with that and issued a fairly detailed warning<= span class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri= f"> (which was the key - she explained what the issue was).=C2=A0 Of= ten the 32 to 64-bit nature forced the programmers at the ISV's= =C2=A0to rethink how there were actually declaring things to make the code cleare= r, simpler, better, etc.=C2=A0 =C2=A0The classic rewrite never h= appens unless you are forced too.

I remember going t= o a Supercomputer conference and talking with the developers at one the ISV= s who I will not name.=C2=A0 He thanks me.=C2=A0 He said his team has been = arguing with their management for years to redo the UNIX support library. T= he Tru64 port was what finally allowed them to do it.=C2=A0 But it took 9 m= onths which pissed off his boss. But when it was completed, and pass all th= e tests on the Alpha, it just recompiled on Solaris, AIX, and HP-UX - which= had never happened before. He could not believe what a great compiler we h= ad.

I've always s= aid=C2=A0the Alpha was the greatest gift to Sun and Intel in the commercial= =C2=A0SW world because it forced the ISV to clean up their act before they = ever saw those processors and Sun/Intel ports were piece of cake.=C2=A0 =C2= =A0It was not that porting to Alpha was difficult -- it was=C2=A0cleaning u= p your own mess.

Remember we= had already gone=C2=A0through this in the PDP-11 ILP16 to Vax ILP32=C2=A0 = transition but it is funny how history repeated itself.
<= /div>
3D""=E1=90=A7
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