From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 2976 invoked from network); 28 Feb 2023 01:16:11 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (50.116.15.146) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 28 Feb 2023 01:16:11 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D045432E5; Tue, 28 Feb 2023 11:16:07 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-vs1-xe2f.google.com (mail-vs1-xe2f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::e2f]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7BF2E432E3 for ; Tue, 28 Feb 2023 11:15:59 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-vs1-xe2f.google.com with SMTP id m10so14374734vso.4 for ; Mon, 27 Feb 2023 17:15:59 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ccc.com; s=google; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=VzVjCTJ0MQBVLCu1op1TpgpiE18GHh6eezBhoG7CwmI=; b=ipGd/NGqro/GlSAUtiq9RdT7P1HxSIksxlQtmgig5Np+/YN/oLtbieSq0itmdo+03F 254io24y2by5n6P6osgQgVm59I/Dl9A7HcRPR4vD8RvJ4YVUo4cIeMWO4/HVy2rB/1T9 1fALKVhl760YvkY+tslOp1PLiCL/glQlzei/Q= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=VzVjCTJ0MQBVLCu1op1TpgpiE18GHh6eezBhoG7CwmI=; b=kiWCwOJpuXKLyapsofI2FLkXTcWrAMx0QacjeULp4dbR+7Fc6F/Rx0iyFAIfxftKTm zVbp1KjDbBh6nWDMLLI5ra4kqxP/+aRuos6dS4y4YFd2KggpxSnZQljhdIpoiJS4TdpZ L7zfHDB+158jwN1IPX+ehR0v1Qsi0AQz2BQ0KZUKUXPyLSRqwLrIt/XUzDVn7iKJ3ZK1 zvNA1BrAnNMr5+sLG/2Wz+2WDznh48pdqwjfDMwDo0J9xsRBzs1cuvGr0mUIatLx88OX ATHFgGQMif9THxJkJmf3QdHmpT50W3S4AuShIi/OTjDWhg++gKVVZKomYTT0vZqpLrvT IQAA== X-Gm-Message-State: AO0yUKUrqj+3ERkB9cXDSj54Um5EGYZsMfB82Y8jN1JgLg+vnNpD7bHF jSzOrTykLHh9uA4YkM+XJzAEfsz/AK+6u8PP7ibibqGY3BLg+2CY X-Google-Smtp-Source: AK7set8oTFryFxTJdwBwaVCEBKuk/QnuGUT69g4II4opkzHNQsDCUCgWxusobPjl4dREygBTabCH1J2iVUO44xY00Ro= X-Received: by 2002:a67:f596:0:b0:402:9b84:1be0 with SMTP id i22-20020a67f596000000b004029b841be0mr1007941vso.2.1677546958233; Mon, 27 Feb 2023 17:15:58 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <58626A0B-EF9C-4920-8E20-CE0C4210BA6A@planet.nl> In-Reply-To: From: Clem Cole Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2023 20:15:47 -0500 Message-ID: To: Jonathan Gray Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000008a382f05f5b85665" Message-ID-Hash: WUHOCZFSGFF2KYXA43HIU24WBAQ4EL3J X-Message-ID-Hash: WUHOCZFSGFF2KYXA43HIU24WBAQ4EL3J X-MailFrom: clemc@ccc.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: Paul Ruizendaal , tuhs@tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: Early GUI on Linux List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: --0000000000008a382f05f5b85665 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I believe Ken Keller wrote the original framemaker using X10 - (maybe 11 but I thought it was 10) running on a Sun3 - I=E2=80=99ll try ask him. H= e was trying to keep it systems independent and at the time X was the most promising way to do that. On Mon, Feb 27, 2023 at 8:09 PM Jonathan Gray wrote: > On Mon, Feb 27, 2023 at 06:22:09PM +0100, Paul Ruizendaal via TUHS wrote: > > > > Thanks all for the insights. Let me attempt a summary. > > > > What it boils down to is that X arrived on Linux very early, because > what the Linux hackers needed/wanted was a familiar terminal multiplexer. > It seems that the pattern persists till the present day (and yes, it > matches with my own dev setup/needs). I wonder to what extent this is a > generational thing though. Maybe today=E2=80=99s twenty-somethings spend = their days > in front of Xcode, VStudio, Eclipse, etc. more than using multiple > terminals. > > > > This ties in with another observation on early window systems. The > earliest Unix window system that I could find (i.e. documented) was NUnix > from 1981/82. Its desktop was designed around the idea of a dozen or so t= op > level windows, each one being either a shell window or a graphics canvas, > with no real concept of a widget set, dialogs, etc., or even of > sub-windows. This paradigm seems to have been more or less the same in th= e > Blit terminal, and carried through in MGR, Mux and even as late as 8 1/2. > In the context where this serves the needs of core user group, such makes > sense. > > > > =3D=3D=3D > > > > It is in stark contrast with developments at the lower/consumer end of > the market. The original Mac, GEM and Windows all placed much more emphas= is > on being a graphical user interface, with standard widgets and UI design > elements. On Unix and X it remained a mess. It seems that this was both f= or > technical reasons (X not imposing a standard) and for economic reasons (t= he > Unix wars). Linux then inherited the mess and the core user/developer > demographic had no need/wish/time to fix it. > > > > It makes me wonder when true graphical applications started to appear > for X / Unix / Linux (other than stuff like terminal, clock, calculator, > etc.). The graphical browser certainly is one (1993). StarOffice and Appl= ix > seem to have arrived around 1995. Anything broadly used before that? > > When did Interleaf and Framemaker have X based versions? > > "Framemaker was the main application everybody would run to prove that > their X box actually worked" > Andrew McRae - Sun, Surf and X in California > AUUGN, Volume 10, Number 4, August 1989 > https://www.tuhs.org/Archive/Documentation/AUUGN/AUUGN-V10.4.pdf > --=20 Sent from a handheld expect more typos than usual --0000000000008a382f05f5b85665 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I believe Ken Keller wrote the original framemaker using = X10 - (maybe 11 but I thought it was 10) running on a Sun3 - =C2=A0I=E2=80= =99ll try ask him. =C2=A0 He was trying to keep it systems independent and = at the time X was the most promising way to do that.=C2=A0

On Mon, Feb = 27, 2023 at 8:09 PM Jonathan Gray <jsg@= jsg.id.au> wrote:
On Mon, = Feb 27, 2023 at 06:22:09PM +0100, Paul Ruizendaal via TUHS wrote:
>
> Thanks all for the insights.=C2=A0 Let me attempt a summary.
>
> What it boils down to is that X arrived on Linux very early, because w= hat the Linux hackers needed/wanted was a familiar terminal multiplexer. It= seems that the pattern persists till the present day (and yes, it matches = with my own dev setup/needs). I wonder to what extent this is a generationa= l thing though. Maybe today=E2=80=99s twenty-somethings spend their days in= front of Xcode, VStudio, Eclipse, etc. more than using multiple terminals.=
>
> This ties in with another observation on early window systems. The ear= liest Unix window system that I could find (i.e. documented) was NUnix from= 1981/82. Its desktop was designed around the idea of a dozen or so top lev= el windows, each one being either a shell window or a graphics canvas, with= no real concept of a widget set, dialogs, etc., or even of sub-windows. Th= is paradigm seems to have been more or less the same in the Blit terminal, = and carried through in MGR, Mux and even as late as 8 1/2. In the context w= here this serves the needs of core user group, such makes sense.
>
> =3D=3D=3D
>
> It is in stark contrast with developments at the lower/consumer end of= the market. The original Mac, GEM and Windows all placed much more emphasi= s on being a graphical user interface, with standard widgets and UI design = elements. On Unix and X it remained a mess. It seems that this was both for= technical reasons (X not imposing a standard) and for economic reasons (th= e Unix wars). Linux then inherited the mess and the core user/developer dem= ographic had no need/wish/time to fix it.
>
> It makes me wonder when true graphical applications started to appear = for X / Unix / Linux (other than stuff like terminal, clock, calculator, et= c.). The graphical browser certainly is one (1993). StarOffice and Applix s= eem to have arrived around 1995. Anything broadly used before that?

When did Interleaf and Framemaker have X based versions?

"Framemaker was the main application everybody would run to prove that=
their X box actually worked"
Andrew McRae - Sun, Surf and X in California
AUUGN, Volume 10, Number 4, August 1989
https://www.tuhs.org/Archive/Documen= tation/AUUGN/AUUGN-V10.4.pdf
--
Sent from a handheld expect more typos t= han usual
--0000000000008a382f05f5b85665--