From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HTML_FONT_LOW_CONTRAST,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 4354 invoked from network); 6 Jun 2021 18:54:06 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (45.79.103.53) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 6 Jun 2021 18:54:06 -0000 Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 509249CA1D; Mon, 7 Jun 2021 04:54:06 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 992D79C9DA; Mon, 7 Jun 2021 04:53:51 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=fail reason="signature verification failed" (1024-bit key; unprotected) header.d=ccc.com header.i=@ccc.com header.b="WS+gdU1/"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 3C2969C9DA; Mon, 7 Jun 2021 04:53:50 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-qv1-f49.google.com (mail-qv1-f49.google.com [209.85.219.49]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 29CE59C9D6 for ; Mon, 7 Jun 2021 04:53:49 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-qv1-f49.google.com with SMTP id g12so7719657qvx.12 for ; Sun, 06 Jun 2021 11:53:49 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ccc.com; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=0z12oJ9dOAcm0/kDjMnhgwXo0nSiThunbIKKS598uDs=; b=WS+gdU1/ILWHZXyaPX6azqEgjnUri/OzKaZHiNXXh2XbyGbOkIeIximsFg3EfIsAEz SZZjL1b4e6tTMRUhfomLgpa7OnJNwQ5ts/q5vH/gJHS/GlujGV6DzbdTpteRJL5iSqx7 X4hb7ECKfXFnIPd23zBkfXm79hDJ5A3qUXZ1M= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=0z12oJ9dOAcm0/kDjMnhgwXo0nSiThunbIKKS598uDs=; b=KmJQJsWm+2s5XvyURnhLsU0U8Fp5OhDXkkKxE7mMLAauqttWYbSOg6LFxuiAovhKg/ 257qe+bgxD+0DNfRejDF3FWr00kelitfAi5fPGTV/S7gP2qvRMihjkdR4guHzvAwvtUJ j0Xmf+mPeojVoNh9JVNthR8ITWFDOCcoRrw5kmG/6f9ODEjvw5zYxms8ikFIMqm41NJd A5ejocWLHL64q1Y5Ply6DNDjZAFiymqLBuFEH4dNWwdntdZJIf3HxDVN5VJpoCjaSvo4 TMPJoRlfbWOky2rlGW+BmzYKoE5HFJMTD0AAvTQDpPvB8edyXuWCLYH8FNXm10NcLct9 M0zA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532IxYDWdx6twOOLZUk3a2a7ktyJPVVKTfGhYnyRJ6WbXwN1uXlt QIhVziBS22GQmjqrYGboyDyp9ka1Ijyk2+PcME3K5A== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzhhyMO/7RkDw5HxPVRqZ8jJdHZmW0TkPaw/o2Ac/ydU2J4X8ThsARgX3HwBQ3Em+kLS4Dl1NN2JHYmQKCc7kc= X-Received: by 2002:a0c:a181:: with SMTP id e1mr14288634qva.9.1623005628145; Sun, 06 Jun 2021 11:53:48 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <9CE2AC05-6B4E-475F-874F-426DD51A8859@planet.nl> <20210606183011.GA10697@mcvoy.com> In-Reply-To: From: Clem Cole Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2021 14:53:22 -0400 Message-ID: To: Larry McVoy Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000ef30c905c41d7167" Subject: Re: [TUHS] 32V memory management: not quite V7 style swapping -- source code update X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: TUHS main list , Paul Ruizendaal Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" --000000000000ef30c905c41d7167 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 4.2 and cheap LAN connections and later WAN connections drove the hockey stick - no doubt and your are right, until the Stream networking work (which was originally Steve Rago and the folks in Summit, IIRC), PWB 3/PWB 4.0 and later the commercially System V was definitely at a huge disadvantage and even when the Streams networking code shows us, the performance was not nearly as good plus by that time, all the code had started to assume sockets (and sockets had been ported to DOS), so Streams was still born. =E1=90=A7 On Sun, Jun 6, 2021 at 2:35 PM Clem Cole wrote: > 4.2 had networking, 4.1 did not. 32V did not either. I'm asking 32V vs > 4.1 > =E1=90=A7 > > On Sun, Jun 6, 2021 at 2:30 PM Larry McVoy wrote: > >> BSD had networking. Once you had that, you don't look back. Sys V (and >> prior) so far as I know, didn't get networking until Coherent did their >> STREAMS stack that somehow ended up at Lachman - I ported it to a crazy >> super computer and to SCO Unix. SCO was pretty stock AT&T code and let >> me tell you, it felt pretty crappy after having used BSD and then SunOS. >> It was a giant step backwards. >> >> I just think the BSD folks were moving forward faster. Rob with start >> talking about cat waving its tail, I get it, not everything was better >> but a lot was. Solid networking that performed was very pleasant. >> >> On Sun, Jun 06, 2021 at 02:23:49PM -0400, Clem Cole wrote: >> > Paul, >> > >> > You got me thinking and I'm curious if anyone really knows historicall= y >> how >> > many sites ran a 32V system? In those days (late 70s/early 80s) the >> > universities that knew and and even many sites inside the Bell System, >> the >> > Vaxen I ran 4.1BSD (say the Marx's brothers at Whippany along with the >> Vax >> > in the underseas research lab were we put the AP I did for my thesis). >> > There were a couple in Summit I know, and probably Homdel and I'm >> guessing >> > in some of the operating companies, but I never got the feeling 32V wa= s >> > popular. The folks with Vaxen that I knew, if you were able to run BS= D >> > (4.1 and eventually 4.2), did. Later on the only non-'pure-joy' >> systems I >> > knew were a couple of Ultrix systems because they wanted the support >> from >> > DEC and IIRC were using FORTRAN and wanted the DEC compiler which only >> ran >> > on Ultrix or VMS. Inside of AT&T, I personally think I knew more folk= s >> > with VMS (Fortran being the key anchor) than those that ran 32V. >> > ??? >> >> -- >> --- >> Larry McVoy lm at mcvoy.com >> http://www.mcvoy.com/lm >> > --000000000000ef30c905c41d7167 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
4.2 and cheap LAN connections and later WAN connections= =C2=A0drove the hockey stick - no doubt and your are right, until=C2=A0the = Stream networking work (which=C2=A0was originally Steve Rago and the folks = in Summit, IIRC), PWB 3/PWB 4.0 and later the commercially System V was def= initely at a huge disadvantage and even when the Streams networking code sh= ows us, the performance=C2=A0was not nearly as good plus by that time, all = the code had started to assume sockets (and sockets had been ported to DOS)= , so Streams was still born.
3D""=E1=90=A7

On Sun, Jun 6, 2= 021 at 2:35 PM Clem Cole <clemc@ccc.com= > wrote:
=
4.2 had networking, 4.1 did not.=C2=A0 =C2=A032V did no= t either.=C2=A0 I'm asking 32V vs 4.1
3D""=E1=90=A7

On Sun, Jun 6, 2021 at 2:30 PM Larry McVoy <lm@mcvoy.com> wrote:
BSD had networking.=C2=A0 Once you had= that, you don't look back.=C2=A0 Sys V (and
prior) so far as I know, didn't get networking until Coherent did their=
STREAMS stack that somehow ended up at Lachman - I ported it to a crazy
super computer and to SCO Unix.=C2=A0 SCO was pretty stock AT&T code an= d let
me tell you, it felt pretty crappy after having used BSD and then SunOS. It was a giant step backwards.

I just think the BSD folks were moving forward faster.=C2=A0 Rob with start=
talking about cat waving its tail, I get it, not everything was better
but a lot was.=C2=A0 Solid networking that performed was very pleasant.

On Sun, Jun 06, 2021 at 02:23:49PM -0400, Clem Cole wrote:
> Paul,
>
> You got me thinking and I'm curious if anyone really knows histori= cally how
> many sites ran a 32V system?=C2=A0 =C2=A0In those days (late 70s/early= 80s) the
> universities that knew and and even many sites inside the Bell System,= the
> Vaxen I ran 4.1BSD (say the Marx's brothers at Whippany along with= the Vax
> in the underseas research lab were we put the AP I did for my thesis).=
> There were a couple in Summit I know, and probably Homdel and I'm = guessing
> in some of the operating companies, but I never got the feeling 32V wa= s
> popular.=C2=A0 The folks with Vaxen that I knew, if you were able to r= un BSD
> (4.1 and eventually 4.2), did.=C2=A0 Later on the only non-'pure-j= oy' systems I
> knew were a couple of Ultrix systems because they wanted the support f= rom
> DEC and IIRC were using FORTRAN and wanted the DEC compiler which only= ran
> on Ultrix or VMS.=C2=A0 Inside of AT&T, I personally think I knew = more folks
> with VMS (Fortran being the key anchor)=C2=A0 than those that ran 32V.=
> ???

--
---
Larry McVoy=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 l= m at mcvo= y.com=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0http://www.mcvoy.com= /lm
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