From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.1 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU,HTML_FONT_LOW_CONTRAST,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 5850 invoked from network); 9 Apr 2021 15:09:18 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (45.79.103.53) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 9 Apr 2021 15:09:18 -0000 Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 608E79C0A0; Sat, 10 Apr 2021 01:09:15 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99CCE9BB66; Sat, 10 Apr 2021 01:08:52 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=pass (1024-bit key; unprotected) header.d=ccc.com header.i=@ccc.com header.b="Rgjl8DoC"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 9098E9BB66; Sat, 10 Apr 2021 01:08:51 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-qt1-f169.google.com (mail-qt1-f169.google.com [209.85.160.169]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D09339BB65 for ; Sat, 10 Apr 2021 01:08:50 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-qt1-f169.google.com with SMTP id 1so4425311qtb.0 for ; Fri, 09 Apr 2021 08:08:50 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ccc.com; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=Yci8CcYUWMtkqjLtAoqK1vCBgnlbBF/yEmYEyVo8mSw=; b=Rgjl8DoCokWERJe9m48bN4fGNini9KLR5fMLbHC2ciFXg7m7mFxTqBjOL07vnvy5TT WMOokvaO5somhIIpkuBCaPe7JlenT/04IJHaVDVhVzAhVd2WpwvAx89pZQzr4GVksUBO LX8ptDs3760mMIxs3EPhjEU7pU3T4gdZqQSRo= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=Yci8CcYUWMtkqjLtAoqK1vCBgnlbBF/yEmYEyVo8mSw=; b=S16ZKcwGUwvMlFV5GIfruGyu6v9FfmuLtCrff9py9gNhP9HEwK44GyxzjLFtYcI7vY U+39rVqqxBql7ihlRRZ/3Sa0fMBGdE/64Pwglh6lTOSt8gE0PsppyWc0jWId3INuZuRf ymDH+9vKfhpntld3Xrs9S1X5OaU+8uXeG+4s+dDbWA+TBqLF88em+jSNurYw+8OU1YsW V2GzivcULEVhLsvTr2bir25s7CvafqvKfqB7TWqSqNSmPQ2hrCD2O4uqsY1XXheKP3cW YSwO8cdJSDPHK05/xvVegaNdt7waAiHVzbSjJ5lRbhXshL7z1og9dMBTgLOpxDUz+FE1 FJFw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531mH9u0bN3HOrtFkQM1dS2z4zqtA5jcOPjdD80qTopYuIZapWD2 Y2yhZPcc84SZMgw7s6QpIFgLsTRdtCqtvTB+GSp43JxZP8mke9X5 X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwLcLmZWLymbGIjAbWRLI2c6ebPQhvzcL1A89yzK3rLPHwrUuQAfSTTyW3G0HgwLhUIg7JGflLiIU03lZAnx/o= X-Received: by 2002:ac8:6044:: with SMTP id k4mr13040454qtm.4.1617980929638; Fri, 09 Apr 2021 08:08:49 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <0F0B9BFC06289346B88512B91E55670D3012@EXCHANGE> <202104090613.1396DQ4L359474@darkstar.fourwinds.com> <57A6F4B4-60F4-4211-9625-70BE6F23201D@cfcl.com> In-Reply-To: <57A6F4B4-60F4-4211-9625-70BE6F23201D@cfcl.com> From: Clem Cole Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2021 11:08:22 -0400 Message-ID: To: Rich Morin Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000090955b05bf8b8a15" Subject: Re: [TUHS] SUN (Stanford University Network) was PC Unix X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: "tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org" Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" --00000000000090955b05bf8b8a15 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Apr 9, 2021 at 2:35 AM Rich Morin wrote: > There's a story I've heard about the SUN-1 board that I'd love to have > confirmed, etc. Basically, it says that Stanford wrote a letter saying > that they didn't make any claims on Andy's work (because he was only an > undergraduate, so how important could it be, anyway...). > Sounds a bit far featured since he did his undergrad at CMU ;-) What Andy designed would (the best I can tell) have started as the 3rd generation processor board for the CMU's distributed front-end (n-th generation of the CMU front end system). The CMU terminal front end was originally a single 11/20 with a lot of ASLI's (asynchronous line interfaces) in them with a parallel connection to the PDP-10s or other larger hosts. The problem was it did not scale and when then Unix machines began to replicate around campus, having a terminal on more than one host was needed, so the distributed front-end was created (by Jim Teter I think). But we started to allow the separated 11/20s to talk to each other. But when the LSI-11s and the Alto's from Xerox appeared a more network-based distributed front-end was built using an LSI-11 chassis. We used an early TCP draft for the protocols and was my introduction to that protocol, as I was part of the crew that switched it to be a Multbus based system and then an Intel 8085 and a Xerox 3M interface, plus an n-port serial board because the LSI-1 based systems were fairly expensive. I've forgotten now, but we might have had a Z80 based processor at some point, as Phil Karn I know had a Z80 C compiler we were using too and the 8085 stuff was assembler if I remember right. IIRC recall somebody at Stanford (Bill Yeager ??maybe??) was doing something similar to the LSI-11 system we were working. How much was Stanford first before CMU I can not say. The 11/20 FE did predate it all, but the two LSI-11s were sort of parallel efforts. I Also thought MIT was doing something ChaosNet around the same time, Noah can fill you in more I suspect. About 2 years later, Andy built a simple 68000 processor [using SUDS - which was what CMU used for Designs in those days] for the multibus version of the DFE, and at some point, somebody (maybe Andy) switched it to an Intel Ethernet board. None of the Multibus or LSI-11 based DFE's had an MMU associated with them. Andy did take took his 68000 CPU design with him to Stanford when he was a grad student and famously redid it adding an MMU and a lot of other features [i.e. CMU board !=3D Stanford Board]. By this time the CMU 'SPICE' proposal had appeared and the idea of the "3M" workstation was being batted around. The Stanford Univerity Network Terminal was created that took his reimagined CPU, the raster display, and other features (I think he was able to get the ethernet on the CPU board by then) -- note it still is using a Multibus-I was the backplane and memory was on a separate board. Stanford licensed the SUN-1 design to a number of firms and while the IP was generally available it was licensed. Cisco made their first router with it, which had a basic architecture that is not unlike the CMU-DFE. Imagin used them for their laser printers. VLSI Technologies would be found (and later renamed SUN) to make them =E1=90=A7 --00000000000090955b05bf8b8a15 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Fri, Apr 9, 2021 at 2:35 = AM Rich Morin <rdm@cfcl.com> wrot= e:
There's a= story I've heard about the SUN-1 board that I'd love to have confi= rmed, etc.=C2=A0 Basically, it says that Stanford wrote a letter saying tha= t they didn't make any claims on Andy's work (because he was only a= n undergraduate, so how important could it be, anyway...).
=
Sounds a bit far featured since he did his undergrad at CMU ;-)

What Andy designed would (the = best I can tell) have started as the 3rd generation processor board for the= CMU's distributed front-end (n-th generation of the CMU front end syst= em).=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0The CMU terminal front end was originally a single = 11/20 with a lot of ASLI's (asynchronous line interfaces) in them with = a parallel connection to the PDP-10s or other larger hosts.=C2=A0 =C2=A0The= problem was it did not scale and when then Unix machines began to replicat= e around campus, having a terminal on more than one host was needed, so the= distributed front-end was created (by Jim Teter I think).=C2=A0 But we sta= rted to allow the separated 11/20s to talk to each other.=C2=A0 But when the LSI-11s and= the Alto's from Xerox appeared a more=C2=A0network-base= d=C2=A0distributed front-end was built using an LSI-11 chassis.=C2= =A0We used an early TCP draft for the protocols and was my introduction to = that protocol, as I was part of the crew that switched it to be a Multbus b= ased system and then an Intel 8085 and a Xerox 3M interface,=C2=A0plus an n= -port serial board because the LSI-1 based systems were fairly expensiv= e.=C2=A0 =C2=A0I've forgotten now, but we = might have had a Z80 based processor at some point, as Phil Karn I know= had a Z80 C compiler we were using too and the 8085 stuff was assem= bler if I remember right.=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0

IIRC recall somebody at S= tanford (Bill Yeager ??maybe??) was doing something similar to the LSI-11 s= ystem we were working.=C2=A0 =C2=A0How much was Stanford first before CMU I= can not say.=C2=A0 =C2=A0The 11/20 FE did predate it all, but the two LSI-= 11s were sort of parallel efforts.=C2=A0 I Also thought MIT was doing somet= hing ChaosNet around the same time, Noah can fill you in more I suspect.

About 2 years later, An= dy built a simple 68000 processor [using SUDS - which was what CMU used for= Designs in those days] for the multibus version of the DFE, and at some po= int, somebody (maybe Andy) switched it to an Intel Ethernet board.=C2=A0 No= ne of the Multibus or LSI-11 based DFE's had an MMU associated with the= m.=C2=A0 Andy did take took his 68000 CPU design with him to Stanford when = he was a grad student and famously redid it adding an MMU and a lot of othe= r features [i.e. CMU board !=3D Stanford Board].

<= /span>
By this time the CMU 'SPICE' proposal had appea= red and the idea of the "3M" workstation was being batted around.= =C2=A0 The Stanford Univerity Network Terminal was created that took his re= imagined=C2=A0CPU, the raster display, and other features (I think he was a= ble to get the ethernet on the CPU board by then) -- note it still is using= a Multibus-I was the backplane and memory was on a separate board.

Stanford licensed the SUN-1 design to a number of firms and w= hile the IP was generally available it was licensed.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Cisco made= their first router with it, which had a basic architecture that is not unl= ike the CMU-DFE.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Imagin used them for their laser printers.=C2= =A0 =C2=A0VLSI Technologies would be found (and later renamed SUN) to make = them=C2=A0

3D""=E1=90=A7
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