From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HTML_FONT_LOW_CONTRAST,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 28310 invoked from network); 8 Apr 2021 13:45:30 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (45.79.103.53) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 8 Apr 2021 13:45:30 -0000 Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 655969CAC1; Thu, 8 Apr 2021 23:45:26 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D39709C723; Thu, 8 Apr 2021 23:44:47 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=fail reason="signature verification failed" (1024-bit key; unprotected) header.d=ccc.com header.i=@ccc.com header.b="AfKJ/5mp"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 7348C9C723; Thu, 8 Apr 2021 23:42:58 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-qk1-f172.google.com (mail-qk1-f172.google.com [209.85.222.172]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C91419C722 for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2021 23:42:57 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-qk1-f172.google.com with SMTP id v70so2154284qkb.8 for ; Thu, 08 Apr 2021 06:42:57 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ccc.com; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=XMT7qLps1JjzGepmHlTZrN/nSZhaOxEk3Bk9QB3Zxk4=; b=AfKJ/5mpXGnXGBrq4zZEtoH3lvkPhH1IIcaZMp+KmDrVLscACAaR8DQ9lD5Nc+UHwK VrQdroS8wf1pD8gdu7AmoUEMSbIJ5igchcj1DsQajpAosVNStC2djMWirGdHlevRN4U0 a53RnOOuGsPDOv1QEruDTkNezlCr6PO+oQ7js= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=XMT7qLps1JjzGepmHlTZrN/nSZhaOxEk3Bk9QB3Zxk4=; b=MQeXm2Tssk5UC1yC9B3M0pjYaRqoh13r/NovLa4aJB1n/AjSSWMEeThh2NpqAeLZS1 vIGK95/jmMwpVq1bUZCFsye+X3Qb7eMR8kM3hcstRaCWuyEXQACCfPe/dERDXTxXXZBg mrKddhxeL/FXH30Ymrh4WD8T3404kZ7RKDGFLdERvNeEM3fygiEVPyzrRQP4Mbw77p5W TYhfZPvbEDjqTMjfmvsVKVq7CULU4o5bra4CMFra+m1T+RINRUR7qbGN8kvZ+RukWPpx QLP06lP9s0dXtuiIAEpbmNZjtcg7u9ToiGFKDC9xzOA24T2L5Q6AHLauCqCCxQL5ZVS4 2Iwg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530Gtm9Yq/pyCWkGqoBHlJ3uaJNQMeekA8JGoYn9F6nqwvFMBcMe dTxY/7Zj/G8+gNNigsOywCvVnb6GEI/yMtBR+1OM3w== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzlykaVQHEqpDBBtGhfU3/lNVUD8SfkW5b+uzAGAbqt4bgzBzKhQqJ2QCpF3mIUGwH3Qr+ip//ohHNkVLQc9uc= X-Received: by 2002:a37:b801:: with SMTP id i1mr8515292qkf.133.1617889376502; Thu, 08 Apr 2021 06:42:56 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Clem Cole Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2021 09:42:30 -0400 Message-ID: To: Ed Bradford Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000929fb305bf763925" Subject: Re: [TUHS] Story about Microsoft and *ix X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: TUHS main list Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" --000000000000929fb305bf763925 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Apr 8, 2021 at 1:58 AM Ed Bradford wrote: > In the early 80's it was Bill Gates who made strategic decisions for MS. > That was even before they went public. My wonder is if Gates had ever use= d > Unix. He (personally) developed BASIC for a CPM (I think) machine. I am > unaware of any system level skills in his experience. > I can say I have personally seen him do so ;-) He and Bob Greenberg were at Ricki's Hyatt at the infamous meeting with AT&T in late 1979/early 1980 [I have forgotten the precise date it was early/mid-winter IIRC -- I was there as =C2=BD of Tektronix's reps - this meeting would lead the Sys III license]. Bob and Bill had some sort of PC with them running a pre-Xenix of some type as an example. Please remember that he and his team ran the Seventh edition of UNIX on a PDP-11/70 at Microsoft (called 'kermit' IIRC) and also TOPS-10 on a KL -- I believe that both of these systems are at the LCM in Seattle these days (which is currently in mothballs due to CV-19 and funding which is a real shame). > If he had knowledge of or used Unix or XENIX (for which he had a master > license from AT&T), why on earth would anyone go down the bazaar path of > DOS with lettered drives, tortuous IO interfaces, and assembly language > source code? > To answer this I have a few educated >>guesses<< which are based on the history of the times and practical reality. Gates (and Paul Allen) had personally grown up TOPS-10 and RSTS in HS and in his 2 semesters at Harvard; so the DEC disk naming scheme for having the system written using assembler was natural to him since DEC did that too. And second, DOS was purchased from Seattle Computer Products (SCP - story told elsewhere and not UNIX history) and it has been written to be modeled after CP/M (which had been modeled at RT/11 and DOS/11 - the last two again using DEC style naming conventions). Interestingly enough, CP/M had been written in PL/M which was Kidall's simplified PL/360 style language for the 8080 that he eventual sold to Intel. I was under the impression SCP used 8086 assembler language for the development of their DOS86 system which was the direct parent to MS/DOS - but they might have used PL/M. So you can add, that an issue at the time was that Intel's PL/M tools were not very portable and since the primary development systems at Microsoft were TOPS-10 and RSTS (and Bob was trying to replace RSTS with UNIX at the time), I don't think there were PL/M tools that ran on them. =E1=90=A7 --000000000000929fb305bf763925 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On T= hu, Apr 8, 2021 at 1:58 AM Ed Bradford <egbegb2@gmail.com> wrote:
In the early 80's it was Bill Gat= es who made strategic decisions for MS. That was even before they went publ= ic. My wonder is if Gates had ever used Unix. He (personally) developed= =C2=A0BASIC for a CPM (I think) ma= chine. I am unaware of any system level skills in his experience.
I can say I ha= ve personally seen him do so ;-)=C2=A0 He and Bob Greenberg were at Ricki&#= 39;s Hyatt at the infamous=C2=A0meeting with AT&T in=C2=A0 late 1979/ea= rly 1980 [I have forgotten the precise date it was early/mid-winter IIRC --= I was there as =C2=BD of Tektronix's=C2=A0reps - this meeting would le= ad the=C2=A0Sys III license].=C2=A0 Bob and Bill had some sort of PC with t= hem running a pre-Xenix of some type as an example.=C2=A0 Please remember that he and his team ran the Seven= th edition of UNIX on a PDP-11/70 at Microsoft (called 'kermit' IIR= C) and also TOPS-10 on a KL -- I believe that both of these systems are at = the LCM in Seattle these days (which is currently in mothballs due to CV-19= and funding which is a real shame).


<= div>=C2=A0
If he had knowledge of or u= sed Unix or XENIX (for which he had a master license from AT&T), why on= earth would anyone go down=C2=A0the bazaar path of DOS with lettered drives, tortuous IO inter= faces, and assembly language source code?
To answer this I have = a few educated=C2=A0>>guesses<< which are based on the history = of the times and practical reality.=C2=A0 Gates (and Paul Allen) had person= ally grown up TOPS-10 and RSTS in HS and in his 2 semesters at Harvard= ; so the DEC disk naming scheme for having the s= ystem=C2=A0written using=C2= =A0assembler was natural to him since DEC did that too.=C2=A0 =C2=A0And sec= ond, DOS was purchased from Seattle Computer Products (SCP - story told els= ewhere and not UNIX history) and it has been written to be modeled after CP= /M (which had been modeled at RT/11 and DOS/11 - the last two again using D= EC style naming conventions).=C2=A0 Interestingly enough, CP/M had been wri= tten in PL/M which was Kidall's simplified PL/360 style language for th= e 8080 that he eventual sold to Intel.=C2=A0 =C2=A0I was under the impressi= on SCP used 8086 assembler language for the development of their DOS86 syst= em which was the direct parent to MS/DOS - but they might have used PL/M.= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 So you can add, that an issue at the time was that Intel'= s PL/M tools were not very portable and since the primary development syste= ms at Microsoft were TOPS-10 and RSTS (and Bob was trying to replace RSTS w= ith UNIX at the time), I don't think there were PL/M tools that ran on = them.
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