From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 5473 invoked from network); 29 Jul 2020 15:42:23 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (45.79.103.53) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 29 Jul 2020 15:42:23 -0000 Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id A57CF9CAAA; Thu, 30 Jul 2020 01:42:17 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA2C59CAA5; Thu, 30 Jul 2020 01:41:12 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=fail reason="signature verification failed" (1024-bit key; unprotected) header.d=ccc.com header.i=@ccc.com header.b="EQBCt2Md"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id D0A529CAA5; Thu, 30 Jul 2020 01:41:10 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-qt1-f171.google.com (mail-qt1-f171.google.com [209.85.160.171]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3355D9CAA3 for ; Thu, 30 Jul 2020 01:41:09 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-qt1-f171.google.com with SMTP id e5so3925095qth.5 for ; Wed, 29 Jul 2020 08:41:09 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ccc.com; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=eok1I348ul+xeCcUD1uql1Q+a/CqGhqhEVPNTVp1uQQ=; b=EQBCt2MdAAa5TsieZBMjnibBpLKbeShdyemRUwbnEqeDd9v7WvpBXyDV7TGZTZ2Xkz 9eJ6iKWsqDwu3ApoSPF9hoQzA3cE9qyPgeuep2QwcZ10mZLMoxRhUZCKUxTMxA8rNNaC y+wSP/N2J38O/hePvUifmDrhgRgLDuj5dT7LM= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=eok1I348ul+xeCcUD1uql1Q+a/CqGhqhEVPNTVp1uQQ=; b=o1QM+JX4utdKoSFifcnGdVxGGcg9Xf7ZhCuyRdLROme+1/ywwapMfhJqI3uaDAD2wL Nf8Mv6T+fhmJdkjnTIm7/G52OJFPSm73Lfa8cfpeEOTirFHErujPzCod7pCCjPsbH5ls XsM7R/XwZ+FlN1/CiCyo0KMmZRcEqONOq39LwEap88U+Bv+ycOUJagsnZdv4dYUf1y1m yeZpFgpU32pFoqXUdZLor3uqGpJ8sPiv8BrkawsnPeKNSc5IAk7ONqNzZEPGAVteT8Zw T7S1VWzORaaKJs0ocb4NwWmGstGQ2Em8Em7QnPq1UwGJnqWclPEaKY2p2wPu9E0xn5KF ouyg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530Bj+dLtl+gP+yaY9LX+mwtpqUTGu3Qn1qQ0DpuTPrw6hoegoAq vqNGsFJ9DOfDZrjFhB+L2CjqidoRlC80yYN5fzxPnw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzvANhfZnR8v1GBP/D3es8dlwBj2Lv2nlwHCLbH1+D+UTFUFmFeEBEhEJVfv5ilLQrEx5Nwb2lawRhxscOpRZ8= X-Received: by 2002:ac8:382f:: with SMTP id q44mr6995788qtb.33.1596037268102; Wed, 29 Jul 2020 08:41:08 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <6a0063f8-128d-751d-114f-a0f811d02098@gmail.com> <26260.1596030165@hop.toad.com> In-Reply-To: <26260.1596030165@hop.toad.com> From: Clem Cole Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2020 11:40:41 -0400 Message-ID: To: John Gilmore Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000069fa6205ab9662b1" Subject: Re: [TUHS] 2bsd tarball -> pdtar, with a side of uuslave X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: TUHS main list , simh@groups.io Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" --00000000000069fa6205ab9662b1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Wed, Jul 29, 2020 at 9:42 AM John Gilmore wrote: > There was another chapter to the "tar wars" after UNIX and after POSIX. > Ah .. indeed - I left out the Gnu Tar story as I was not 100% sure of how it came about as I had not taken part in it. And pretty much for the purposes of how we go to where we are today, other than it exists, works, is a popular implementation and can read/write things when called upon ... I did not think it would add to the (already) long story. The null vs space filling is an interesting point which I had left out. Thank you for that detail - I do remember it. If I missspoke/was confusing (I hope not) about the UIDs I thought I had said the way you did. The key was that USTAR added the names in ASCII which was not there before in Ken's original version. Again, thanks for the friendly addition/update. After I left Sun in about 1985, I worked on a project with GNU and the > BSD folks, to find or write freely available implementations of many > popular UNIX commands. Yep, I do remember all that... > Since we didn't find a free "tar" program, I wrote one from scratch, > based on the SunOS man page and on running the > tar binary from SunOS 3.3. > I always found that strange the folks that wrote that that tar implementation (i.e. you and your mates) had not found the pax code, as the USENIX version had been previously posted/was in the wild by then. Keith certainly knew about it (he could have even been part of the finding a student to write it, but I don't remember), but he also might have been off at BSDi by that time. I think by then that the USENIX FOSS implementation even knew how to behave like cpio, tar, or pax depending on its name. I'm fairly sure, that Apple and HP had picked it up soon after it's release. DEC had a different set of tar switches, so pax was put in the Ultrix contributed library, and they left theirs alone. That said, the USENIX version did have an MIT/UCB/CMU style license, not the gpl, which our common 'friend' in Cambridge often (??always??) found suspicious. So, I had always >>suspected<< the licensing style was driver for yet another version, and have always been a little curious. But to me it was like C compilers, as long as they all worked, I didn't care. As you know, I have never been super religious about the different license flavors as long as I could use it. Probably a good beer discussion/story behind it all when I see you next at a future conference post CV-19. Clem --00000000000069fa6205ab9662b1 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Wed, Jul 29, 2020 at 9:42 AM John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com> wrote:
=
Ah ..=C2=A0 indeed - I left out the Gnu T= ar story as I was not 100% sure of how it came about as I had not taken par= t in it.=C2=A0 And pretty much for the purposes of how we go to where we ar= e today, other than it exists, works, is a popular=C2=A0implementation and = can read/write things when called upon ... I did not think it would add to = the (already) long story. The null vs space filling is an interesting point= which I had left out.=C2=A0 Thank you for that detail - I do remember it.<= /span>

If I missspoke/was confusing= (I hope not) about the UIDs I thought I had said the way you did.=C2=A0 Th= e key was that USTAR added the names in ASCII which was not there before in= Ken's original version.

Again, thanks for the friendly addition/update.
<= br>

After I left Sun in about 1985, I worked on a project with= GNU and the
BSD folks, to find or write freely available implementations of many
popular UNIX commands.=C2=A0
Yep, I do remember all th= at...

=C2=A0
Since we didn't find a free "tar" program, I= wrote one from scratch, based on the SunOS man page and on running = the
tar binary from SunOS 3.3.
I always found that str= ange the folks that wrote that that tar implementation (i.e. you and your m= ates) had not found the pax code, as the USENIX version had been previously= posted/was in the wild by then.=C2=A0 Keith certainly knew about it (he co= uld have even been part of the finding a student to=C2=A0write it, but I do= n't remember), but he also might have been off at BSDi by that time.=C2= =A0 I think by then that the=C2=A0USENIX FOSS implementation even=C2=A0knew= how to behave like cpio, tar, or pax depending on its name.

I'm fairly sure, that Apple and HP had= picked it up soon after it's release.=C2=A0 DEC had a different=C2=A0s= et of tar switches,=C2=A0so pax was put in the Ultrix contributed library,= =C2=A0and they left theirs alone.=C2=A0 That said, the USENIX version did h= ave an MIT/UCB/CMU style license, not the gpl, which our common 'friend= ' in Cambridge often (??always??) found suspicious.=C2=A0 So, I had alw= ays >>suspected<< the licensing style was driver=C2=A0for yet another=C2=A0version,=C2=A0and have always been a little cu= rious.

But to me it was like C compilers, as long as they all worked, I didn&= #39;t care.=C2=A0 As you know, I have never been super religious about the = different license flavors as long as I could use it.=C2=A0=C2=A0Probably a good b= eer discussion/story behind it all when I see you next at a futu= re conference post CV-19.



Clem
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