From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HTML_FONT_LOW_CONTRAST,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 23860 invoked from network); 16 Mar 2023 23:19:10 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (50.116.15.146) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 16 Mar 2023 23:19:10 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C72841405; Fri, 17 Mar 2023 09:19:05 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-yb1-xb36.google.com (mail-yb1-xb36.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::b36]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9772E413CE for ; Fri, 17 Mar 2023 09:18:58 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-yb1-xb36.google.com with SMTP id r1so3834101ybu.5 for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2023 16:18:58 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ccc.com; s=google; t=1679008737; h=to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version :from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=H9id62Da1+luAamuAXMw6rTmKTlvhZcLFrSBWWi9GNI=; b=dhUtIxPdFnqtFzwVUKfDrDOs7koJAVZf4+OsRekrOI4IPdhesRy93jy4NcBY6ohXdP daFJfO5JZwyEs0oDX9hNclDeua9QNAZ1jK5Gk1sfS3xUt0ovORF1D2DQpvejvWXiny9M NzmnEQas/zlmUth7hyg75q54BozEQRoAiKExY= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; t=1679008737; h=to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version :x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=H9id62Da1+luAamuAXMw6rTmKTlvhZcLFrSBWWi9GNI=; b=KwpPjZFsK8zlInFl+DsSIuLZJcD61qnV/GHSke/YxMWHyGjuYJ+gBEN4U0brNe/faL xYHjziaxOilL/xKq30GIkiATAzwGnobow3KDcSh8hJhnTJ8GbfKcAHLyj6pO5HrlwYR1 hRvpf0bMOSt+ytKbKY/FRCf3shg9vKF4EYBzcHmcmmfyhKXhZlI49YEyxgXMwP6lQJPm 3qo1YUMaZChc1QCXA0ZkuTEBT41rC6yqp1QOEZ7MKI4BmAlsL30kSRZozS0lKu/RkN9a G8sRUNZi2+TAR1/khMTIgk42/r1pZyIvUl3ISTLQt31P/XPYN6xl/fLEwYVq6k5KuPmc LsLw== X-Gm-Message-State: AO0yUKUG70x2zQoJSyS6yLShSgUxPXmZK23C78T1HXFfZowzWytiUmp6 dRXJRxObEqWS+If1D04ZGMLjUa7aVJwV6FdMipnWyIL+vhYXRoB7ZoiRUw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AK7set+d1Qoj9jlqKA5trHRdzKMQdGdyPsEnAgUOBCegRn4g6Y3WvE1rPDg8m5k52reLWAiOEsIwEIY9obD9ia/tWe4= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6902:1024:b0:b4a:3896:bc17 with SMTP id x4-20020a056902102400b00b4a3896bc17mr5087086ybt.0.1679008736592; Thu, 16 Mar 2023 16:18:56 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20230315115947.A0CC418C07E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <984bc9a1-70ea-4032-be21-b99f8d40e897@app.fastmail.com> <20230315212201.GY27975@mcvoy.com> In-Reply-To: From: Clem Cole Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2023 19:18:28 -0400 Message-ID: To: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000051ecd705f70caf50" Message-ID-Hash: JIBB6V65OMC7HQ7KCRCCUSTHORL4IHYB X-Message-ID-Hash: JIBB6V65OMC7HQ7KCRCCUSTHORL4IHYB X-MailFrom: clemc@ccc.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: UNIX System V Release 2.2 gdts Vax-780 List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: --00000000000051ecd705f70caf50 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Mar 15, 2023 at 5:38=E2=80=AFPM KenUnix wr= ote: > So, at this point what is the safest road to take? > > Stick with v7? > I'm not a lawyer - this is not legal advice. This is how I personally analyze these Ancient UNIX license wording against the history of how different UNIX releases we made publically available. *YMMV - get a legal opinion and form your own opinion and make a personal choice.* The Ancient UNIX license -- the document Warren has on the site ( https://www.tuhs.org/ancient.html) says [please go read it yourself]: 1.9 SUCCESSOR OPERATING SYSTEM means a SCO software offering that is (i) specifically designed for a 16-Bit computer, or (ii) the 32V version, and (iii) specifically excludes UNIX System V and successor operating systems. My take ... - Any UNIX package based on the Research Editions 1-7 and 32V is allowed. This family includes the16-bit 1BSD, 2BSD, 2.9-11BSD and 32V ba= sed 3BSD, 4BSD, 4.1BSD, 4.2BSD, 4.3BSD and 4.4BSD. - PWB1.0 and 2.0 are 16-bit - although PWB 2.0 was not officially released outside of the Bell System (except possibly for the note sugges= ted about Wollongong advertising they had it). But under the 16-bit rule - = I interpret both PWB 1.0 and 2.0 as being covered. - PWB 3.0 (*a.k.a.* System III) was released for both PDP-11 and Vaxen and was thus generally available to the Unix (source) licensees. Under the 16-bit rule, I would *personally interpret* that PWB 3.0 is covered since it is not explicitly called out (as System V is called out). - This also puts PWB 4.0 in an interesting place. Like PWB 2.0, it was never released outside of the Bell System; although Bell folks had 16-bi= t versions, they were starting to be depreciated in favor of Vaxen and WE32000/3B-based ISAs. Given the exclusion starts at System V and *there was a 16-bit version* for PWB 4.0 internally, again, I personally *suspe= ct it's okay*, but get your own legal opinion, please. - Clearly, anything* no matter the *ISA any release is based on System V, SVR1, SVR2, SVR3, SVR4, and SVR5 has been excluded in that license, which means unless the current IP owners of System V-based UNIX make a new license, I personally interpret that as a no-no according to this license. Some other random thoughts.. - Some of the commercial UNIXs (as described by Charlie WRT to Dell), have encumberments beyond AT&Ts - say IP from MIPs whose compiler was of= ten used and was not based on the AT&T IP and Transcript or PostScript, whic= h came from Adobe. For instance, besides Dell, DEC, HP, IBM's versions h= ave these types of IP issues in Ultrix/HPUX/AIX. I *suspect *many if not most commercial UNIX released would be in the same situation - particula= rly given Charlie example of Dell who was making a 'Wintel' release. - IBM, HP, and Sun all bought out their UNIX license from AT&T at some point and owned the right to do whatever they wanted with it. And as has been discussed here, a version of Solaris which had SVR4 code in it was released by Sun and later taken back in by Oracle. Some questions for your lawyers would be: 1. If Solaris was released, doesn't that make at least the bits from that release available forever? Clearly, some people on this list have made that interpretation - I'm personally not willing to take that ri= sk. 2. Assume 1 seems to mean that the Solaris IP from that release is free to be examined and used since it was partly based on SVR4, does = that make SVR4 available also? *i.e.* it does not matter what the owners of the SVR4 IP think, Sun legally released it with their license? = To me, this gets back to the USL vs. BSDi/UCB case ok what was what, and= the question is how to show some portion of the code base was or want not released by Sun and what parts had been. Again, I personally will n= ot take that risk. =E1=90=A7 --00000000000051ecd705f70caf50 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Wed, Mar 15, 2023 at 5:38= =E2=80=AFPM KenUnix <ken.unix.= guy@gmail.com> wrote:
So, at this point what is the safest roa= d to take?

Stick with v7?
=
I'm not a lawyer - this is not lega= l advice. This is how I personally=C2=A0analyze these Ancient UNIX license = wording against the history of how different UNIX releases=C2=A0we=C2=A0mad= e publically available. YMMV - get a legal opinion=C2=A0and form your= own opinion and make a personal choice.

<= /span>
The Ancient UNIX license -- the=C2=A0docume= nt Warren has=C2=A0on the site (https://www.tuhs.org/ancient.h= tml) says [please go read it yourself]:

1.9 SUCCESSOR OPERATING SYSTEM means a S= CO software offering that is (i) specifically designed for a 16-Bit compute= r, or (ii) the 32V version, and (iii)=C2=A0specifically excludes UNIX System V and=C2=A0successor operating systems.=C2=A0=

My ta= ke ...
  • Any UNIX package based on the Research Editions 1-7 = and 32V is allowed. This family includes the16-bit 1BSD, 2BSD, 2.9-11BSD=C2= =A0and 32V based 3BSD, 4BSD, 4.1BSD, 4.2BSD, 4.3BSD and 4.4BSD.
  • PWB= 1.0 and 2.0 are 16-bit - although PWB 2.0 was not officially released outsi= de of the Bell System (except possibly for the note suggested about Wollong= ong advertising they had it).=C2=A0 But under the 16-bit rule - I interpret= both PWB 1.0 and 2.0 as being covered.
  • PWB 3.0 (a.k.a. Syst= em III) was released for both PDP-11 and Vaxen and was thus generally avail= able to the Unix (source) licensees.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Under the 16-bit rule, I w= ould personally=C2=A0interpret that PWB 3.0 is covered since = it is not explicitly=C2=A0called out (as System V is called out).=C2=A0 =C2= =A0
  • This also puts PWB 4.0 in an interesting place. Like PWB 2.0, i= t was never released outside of the Bell System; although Bell folks had 16= -bit versions, they were starting to be depreciated in favor of Vaxen and W= E32000/3B-based ISAs.=C2=A0Given the exclusion starts at System V and there was a 16-bit version for PWB 4.0 internally, again, I person= ally suspect it's okay, but get your own legal opinion, p= lease.
  • Clearly, anything no matt= er the ISA any release is=C2=A0based on=C2=A0System V, SVR1, SVR2, SVR3= , SVR4, and SVR5 has been excluded in that license, which means unless the = current IP owners of System V-based UNIX make a new=C2=A0license, I persona= lly interpret that as a no-no according to this license.

=
Some other random thoughts..

  • So= me of the commercial UNIXs (as described by Charlie WRT to Dell), have encu= mberments beyond AT&Ts - say IP from MIPs whose compiler was often used= and was not based on the AT&T IP and Transcript or PostScript, which c= ame from Adobe.=C2=A0 =C2=A0For instance, besides Dell, DEC, HP, IBM's = versions have these types of IP issues in Ultrix/HPUX/AIX.=C2=A0 I su= spect many if not most commercial UNIX released would be in the sam= e situation - particularly given Charlie example of Dell who was making a &= #39;Wintel' release.
  • IBM, HP, and Sun all bought out their UNIX= license from AT&T at some point and owned the right to do whatever the= y wanted with it. And as has been discussed here, a version of Solaris whic= h had SVR4 code in it was released by Sun and later taken back in by Oracle= .=C2=A0 =C2=A0Some questions for your lawyers would be:
=
    1. If Solaris was released, doesn't that make at least th= e bits from that release available forever?=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Clearly, so= me people on this list have made that interpretation - I'm personally n= ot willing to take that risk.
    2. Assume 1 seems to mean that the Solar= is IP from that release is free to be examined and used since it was partly= based on SVR4, does that make SVR4 available also? i.e. it does not= matter what the owners of the SVR4 IP think, Sun legally released it with = their license?=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0To me, this gets back to the USL vs. BSDi= /UCB case ok what was what, and the question is how to show some portion of= the code base was or want not released by Sun and what parts had been.=C2= =A0 =C2=A0Again, I personally will not take that risk.
=

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