From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.1 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 30637 invoked from network); 1 Feb 2022 18:48:56 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (45.79.103.53) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 1 Feb 2022 18:48:56 -0000 Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id F0ED09D6DC; Wed, 2 Feb 2022 04:48:53 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C900F9D0B6; Wed, 2 Feb 2022 04:48:29 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=pass (1024-bit key; unprotected) header.d=ccc.com header.i=@ccc.com header.b="DdOB07h/"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 7EAC29D0B6; Wed, 2 Feb 2022 04:48:27 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-qv1-f43.google.com (mail-qv1-f43.google.com [209.85.219.43]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0152A9B95E for ; Wed, 2 Feb 2022 04:48:26 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-qv1-f43.google.com with SMTP id s6so16829751qvv.11 for ; Tue, 01 Feb 2022 10:48:26 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ccc.com; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=g6ZWd/QDdMsi27DJDmiYIwR872rCD/EshvDFng7/WuI=; b=DdOB07h/HsEBujsixsjGh6/Xi7IxvvpJSZAD8ji2aJ+yZk2TDVezcsroWz/U2RTR15 VeKTer+KEon01qsABVBAv8YVVp1kDkaUW7/5QXkKbbBCvbER2hr0c1NQtD16Ym9BO5/w RhYeH672MQvC3OVyqpmhpxkDoL4PEnDL9UHeY= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=g6ZWd/QDdMsi27DJDmiYIwR872rCD/EshvDFng7/WuI=; b=z8GNe7cWs2S5fCFPRIu0XNemyQJ32ia81FMmTSfnsTD3NyIH3q6WbWZC9M86i7Stef ZndLU2AEYSl9jhTYmgUME0JkVmv1uzttf5IWx3nnTf6QJK57NAFsUJl/umMWNpYvfzUL 6uBsK+BQI7to+mtkWqTQZoBFT1N6kPA1iBcInltmoRiIcSaMq3RpH7fdIaepS5wpl7pv wkPeHH6GPXpzYoXupmWp+MM1gDO79FAxRg/aAvMMVN0O+Ei5m6vsL9YtsSVZtnckA4Yr nlDCz0ndmHktzEOPbdoEqkTFS2wkh21BIVYXj3lRNI4XQtQP9YhyKo3INfgcb0V8Cl1k Fprg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5313f0fwCUHt7/qdZvJLoiyPoonrKm/Sup/JEy7cZ7Hr6FjFjgof HYjhgH4zEf/AUN2wQMEw35B5ZRm2h/iB86K9l1Ja9w== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwXm8PNpJemKmBNjLjmFJh2Upuh5xm6WDY1TVDO44bY8xAVinV59x++eFPrfmGU+srDMj+EdD7MeO7XtTWa0P4= X-Received: by 2002:ad4:5bc4:: with SMTP id t4mr23637393qvt.38.1643741305885; Tue, 01 Feb 2022 10:48:25 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20220201181909.6224518C086@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> In-Reply-To: <20220201181909.6224518C086@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> From: Clem Cole Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2022 13:47:59 -0500 Message-ID: To: Noel Chiappa Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000a3e61605d6f958b9" Subject: Re: [TUHS] ratfor vibe X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" --000000000000a3e61605d6f958b9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Tue, Feb 1, 2022 at 1:19 PM Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Clem Cole > > > So by the late 70s/early 80s, [except for MIT where LISP/Scheme > reigned] > > Not quite. The picture is complicated, because outside the EECS department, > they all did their own thing - > Interesting .. I trust you, but I had thought ( famously) you folks had required a LISP and/or Scheme in the required "intro to computers" course using the Gerald Sussman and Hal Abelson "Structure of Computer Programs" [Scheme IIRC] until it was finally replaced a few years ago with a Python based one [I thought it was tjt that told me that, but I could easily have been misled/misunderstood]. FWIW: Through the 60s, the early and into the later 70s, CMU used to call its 15-104 "Intro to Computer Programming" and was based on batch (card) computing using FTN4, later WATFIV. They used a number of books. The book I had was from Waterloo and other than being blue and black in color, I remember little from it - since I already knew how and the TA let me take 'self-taught' by turning in assignments/taking the tests without going to class. Like Freshman Physics and Calc, all intro science and engineering majors were required to take it however, since the engineering depts were sure what you would see when you graduated was FTN based code [which was probably true for the more pure Science types]. Much later (many years after I left) the CS Dept finally convinced Mat Sci, Chem E and Mech E to allow the course to be taught using Pascal. I think they use either Java or Python now, but I haven't checked. On the other hand, at UCB the intro course was called CS-40 "Introduction to Computing" which was required of all Letters and Science Majors. When I helped to teach it in the early 80s as a grad student, we could only handle a thousand students and turned away over another thousand [for a required undergrad course]. We used Clancy and Cooper's "Oh Pascal" as the text and the UCB pi interpreter on the 11/70s running a flavor of V7 / 2BSD. Before I got there, they must have taught it on the CDC machine using FTN, but I'm not sure. --000000000000a3e61605d6f958b9 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Tue, Feb 1, 2022 at 1:19 = PM Noel Chiappa <jnc@mercury.= lcs.mit.edu> wrote:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Fro= m: Clem Cole

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > So by the late 70s/early 80s, [except for MIT where LISP= /Scheme reigned]

Not quite. The picture is complicated, because outside the EECS department,=
they all did their own thing -
Interesting .. I trust yo= u, but I had thought ( famously) you folks had required a LISP and/or Schem= e in the required "intro to computers" course using the=C2=A0Gerald =C2= =A0Sussman and Hal Abelson "Structure of Computer Programs" [Sche= me IIRC]=C2=A0until it was finally replaced a few years ago w= ith a Python=C2=A0based one [I thought it was tjt that told me that, but I = could easily have been misled/misunderstood].

FWIW: = =C2=A0Through the 60s, the early and into the later 70s, CMU used to call i= ts 15-104 "Intro to Computer Programming" and was based on batch = (card) computing using FTN4, later WATFIV.=C2=A0 They used a number of book= s.=C2=A0 The book I had was from Waterloo and other than being blue and bla= ck in color, I remember little from it - since I already knew how and the T= A let me take 'self-taught' by turning in assignments/taking the te= sts without going to class.=C2=A0 Like Freshman Physics and=C2=A0Calc, all = intro science and=C2=A0engineering majors were required to take it however,= since the engineering depts were sure what you would see when you graduate= d was=C2=A0FTN based code [which was probably true for the more pure Scienc= e types]. =C2=A0 Much later (many years after I left) =C2=A0the=C2=A0CS Dep= t finally convinced Mat Sci, Chem E and Mech E to allow the course=C2=A0to = be taught using Pascal.=C2=A0 I think they use either Java or Python now, b= ut I haven't checked.

On the other hand, at UCB th= e intro course=C2=A0was called CS-40 "Introduction to Computing" = which was required of all Letters and Science Majors. =C2=A0 When I helped = to teach it in the early 80s as a grad student, we could only handle a thou= sand students and turned away over another thousand [for a required undergr= ad course]. =C2=A0 We used Clancy and Cooper's "Oh Pascal" as= the text and the UCB pi interpreter on the 11/70s running a flavor of V7 /= =C2=A0 2BSD.=C2=A0 Before I got there, they must=C2=A0have taught it on the= CDC machine using FTN, but I'm not sure.
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