From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.5 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [45.79.103.53]) by inbox.vuxu.org (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id 9cd54f6c for ; Mon, 24 Feb 2020 16:20:50 +0000 (UTC) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id AC2AE9D6C2; Tue, 25 Feb 2020 02:20:49 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E54B19D6E8; Tue, 25 Feb 2020 02:20:04 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=fail reason="signature verification failed" (1024-bit key; unprotected) header.d=ccc.com header.i=@ccc.com header.b="mpR4qrBR"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 922DE9CE1E; Tue, 25 Feb 2020 02:20:01 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-qk1-f170.google.com (mail-qk1-f170.google.com [209.85.222.170]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 361539D51B for ; Tue, 25 Feb 2020 02:20:00 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-qk1-f170.google.com with SMTP id 11so5072943qkd.1 for ; Mon, 24 Feb 2020 08:20:00 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ccc.com; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=TkXqbIT1zi1byxLAnGdWHC3rxHTHgF5dtAaMHGOlofU=; b=mpR4qrBRSwsNNYT+BeW9DKae16FxGD4KzKveWSiuywgyWEDJzu+EmNbcye+pL20Dop 1EM6b2HGpGseLLUccvMKKbdb3mT8y0oUODxgUn0gFK4ShQh51e4ZMxl8qgTKtG4ZgH6b p8ImCyhTIW2/yAcGSEdX64iUlCrZYGC5041sA= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=TkXqbIT1zi1byxLAnGdWHC3rxHTHgF5dtAaMHGOlofU=; b=bGr2t9yY54LwtdRdQIXcsJWTUJkV8bwEWe7SrSBTn4l53NYuQkpinKG+9ev14lrYHe j31H05vJxotCU+shFz5/mNebsfWBOGkDvBWEif4o5O/cYMfrOoTVIK9EkUSxb+P5VO4w pyKQZtDaRrcWBS0ION5oX/9bCicFdCtqwGLvHkop9wCT/xYY5o5LcsIBZDJ2WS6Co+lT zFgKywhFBdnozKu/lECnb+0bNkaCpzP7OKQhushdmRjcTFpOzU3FUU/xDjdsxvyu2CWv dm5LXD1NXKtzmaCEW3/mpF4bk+45PamuMR9cVsZVZ8TYSHcjRTeQkRAJaz4aQhk9yiHK m6mg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXKBwkb4HlE4JFGzrC+QiAihieGdekerhEC2QBOZTuU3pVbRGA6 //7bx0L+x8TE3xxILlJwuBhDaqoj5UR5LyPCj8Rlrg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxf1tG1eJBRIrtMEqIZiQh5gXnXaJFO8zJdNOZPMyJ4KbHIeXRHNgHW/NXsZqrhG/XwwGy38rGJ1zycg9e+MY4= X-Received: by 2002:a05:620a:1537:: with SMTP id n23mr51461909qkk.476.1582561199126; Mon, 24 Feb 2020 08:19:59 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200212030152.GJ852@mcvoy.com> <20200224104010.2d8510cfe00da71439f5d05e@sjmulder.nl> <20200224151929.GJ30841@mcvoy.com> In-Reply-To: From: Clem Cole Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2020 11:19:33 -0500 Message-ID: To: Adam Thornton Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000001c0c2b059f54be61" Subject: Re: [TUHS] [COFF] Fwd: Old and Tradition was V9 shell X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society , Computer Old Farts Followers Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" --0000000000001c0c2b059f54be61 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I probably should have added, it's not just the learnings from DEC Gem folks, but also the old "Kuck and Associates" team formerly in Champaign (Intel moved them all to Austin). On Mon, Feb 24, 2020 at 11:15 AM Clem Cole wrote: > > First please continue this discussion on COFF (which has been CC'ed). > While Fortran is interesting to many, it not a UNIX topic per say. > > Also, as I have noted in other places, I work for Intel - these comments > are my own and I'm not trying to sell you anything. Just passing on 45+ > years of programming experience. > > On Mon, Feb 24, 2020 at 10:34 AM Adam Thornton > wrote: > >> I would think that FORTRAN is likelier to be passed around as folk wisdo= m >> and ancient PIs (uh, Primary Investigators, not the detective kind) >> thrusting a dog-eared FORTRAN IV manual at their new grad students and >> snarling "RTFM!" than as actual college courses. >> > FWIW: I was at CMU last week recruiting. Fortran, even at a leading CS > place like CMU, is hardly "folk wisdom". All the science PhD's (Chem, Mat > Sci, Bio, Physics) that I interviewed all knew and used Fortran (nad list= ed > on their CV's) as their primary language for their science. > > As I've quipped before, Fortran pays my own (and a lot of other people's > salaries in the industry). Check out: > https://www.archer.ac.uk/status/codes/ Fortran is about 90% of the codes > running (FWIW: I have seen similar statistics from other large HPC sites > - you'll need to poke). > > While I do not write in it, I believe there are three reasons why these > statistics are true and* going to be true for a very long time*: > > 1. The math being used has not changed. Just open up the codes and > look at what they are doing. You will find that they all are all solv= ing > systems of partial differential equations using linear algebra (-- see= the > movie: "Hidden Figures"). > 2. 50-75 years of data sets with know qualities and programs to work > with them. If you were able to replace the codes magically with somet= hing > 'better' - (from MathLab to Julia or Python to Java) all their data wo= uld > have to be requalified (it is like the QWERTY keyboard - that shipped > sailed years ago). > 3. The *scientists want to do their science* for their work to get > their degree or prize. The computer and its programs *are a tool* > for them look at data *to do their science*. They don't care as long > as they get their work done. > > > Besides Adam's mention of flang, there is, of course, gfortran; but there > are also commerical compilers available for use: Qualify for Free > Software | Intel=C2=AE Software > I > believe PGI offers something similar, but I have not checked in a while. > Most 'production' codes use a real compiler like Intel, PGI or Cray's. > > FWIW: the largest number of LLVM developers are at Intel now. IMO, > while flang is cute, it will be a toy for a while, as the LLVM IL really > can not handle Fortran easily. There is a huge project to put a number o= f > the learnings from the DEC Gem compilers into LLVM and one piece is gutti= ng > the internal IL and making work for parallel architectures. The >>hope<< > by many of my peeps, (still unproven) is that at some point the FOSS worl= d > will produce a compiler as good a Gem or the current Intel icc/ifort set. > (Hence, Intel is forced to support 3 different compiler technologies > internally in the technical languages group). > > --0000000000001c0c2b059f54be61 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I probably should=C2=A0have added, it's not just th= e learnings=C2=A0from DEC Gem folks, but also the old "Kuck and Associ= ates" team formerly in Champaign (Intel moved them all to Austin).

On Mon, Feb 24, 2020 at 11:15 AM Clem Cole <clemc@ccc.com> wrote:

First please continue=C2=A0this discussion on COFF (whic= h has been CC'ed).=C2=A0 While=C2=A0Fortran is interesting=C2=A0to many= , it not a UNIX topic per say.

<= /font>
Also, as I have noted in other place= s, I work for Intel - these comments are my own and I'm not trying to s= ell you anything.=C2=A0 Just passing on 45+ years of programming experience= .

On Mon= , Feb 24, 2020 at 10:34 AM Adam Thornton <athornton@gmail.com> wrote:
= I would think that FORTRAN is likelier to be passed= around as folk wisdom and ancient PIs (uh, Primary Investigators, not the = detective kind) thrusting a dog-eared FORTRAN IV manual at their new grad s= tudents and snarling "RTFM!" than as actual college courses.
FWIW: I was at = CMU last week recruiting.=C2=A0 Fortran, even at a leading CS place like CM= U, is hardly "folk wisdom". All the science PhD's (Chem, Mat = Sci, Bio, Physics) that I interviewed all knew and used Fortran (nad listed= on their CV's) as their primary language=C2=A0for their science.=C2=A0

<= font color=3D"#0000ff">As I've quipped before, Fortran pays my own (and= a lot of other people's salaries in the industry).=C2=A0 Check out:=C2= =A0=C2=A0https://www.archer.ac.u= k/status/codes/=C2=A0Fortran is about 90% of the codes running (= FWIW:=C2=A0 I have seen similar statisti= cs=C2=A0from other large HPC sites - you'll need to poke).
=

Whil= e I do not write in it, I believe there are three reasons why these statist= ics are true and going to be true for a very long time:
=
  1. The math being used has not changed.=C2= =A0 Just=C2=A0open up the codes and look at what they are doing.=C2=A0 You = will find that they all are all solving systems of partial differential equ= ations using linear algebra (-- see the movie:=C2=A0 "Hidden Figures&q= uot;).
  2. 50-75 years of data sets with= know qualities and programs to work with them.=C2=A0 If you were able to r= eplace the codes magically with something 'better' - (from MathLab = to Julia or Python to Java) all their data would have to be requalified (it= is like the QWERTY keyboard - that shipped sailed years ago).
    3. <= li>The scientists want to do their science f= or their work to get their degree or prize.=C2=A0 =C2=A0The computer and it= s programs are a tool for them look at data to do their science.=C2=A0 =C2=A0They don't care as long as they get their work done.

Besides Adam's mention of flang, there is, of course, gfo= rtran; but there are also commerical=C2=A0compilers available for use:=C2= =A0=C2=A0Qualify for Free Software | Intel=C2=AE Sof= tware=C2=A0 I believe PGI offers something similar, but I have not chec= ked in a while.=C2=A0 Most 'production' codes use a real compiler l= ike Intel, PGI or Cray's.

=
FWIW: the largest number of LLVM = developers are at Intel now.=C2=A0 IMO, while=C2=A0flang=C2=A0is=C2=A0cute,= it will be a toy for a while, as the LLVM IL really can not handle Fortran= easily.=C2=A0 There is a huge project to put a number of the learnings fro= m the DEC Gem compilers into LLVM and one piece is gutting the internal IL = and making work for parallel architectures.=C2=A0 The >>hope<< = by many of my peeps, (still unproven) is that at some point the FOSS world = will produce a compiler as good a Gem or the current Intel icc/ifort set.= =C2=A0 (Hence, Intel is forced to support=C2=A03 different compiler technol= ogies internally in the technical languages group).

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