From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.1 (2015-04-28) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU,HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,HTML_FONT_LOW_CONTRAST, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_32,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.1 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [45.79.103.53]) by inbox.vuxu.org (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id f4211689 for ; Wed, 27 Jun 2018 14:39:31 +0000 (UTC) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 4DA03A189F; Thu, 28 Jun 2018 00:39:30 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A133A181A; Thu, 28 Jun 2018 00:39:19 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=pass (1024-bit key; unprotected) header.d=ccc.com header.i=@ccc.com header.b=hDnLy1OZ; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 67A9DA181A; Thu, 28 Jun 2018 00:39:18 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-it0-f53.google.com (mail-it0-f53.google.com [209.85.214.53]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D379D9EDF1 for ; Thu, 28 Jun 2018 00:39:17 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-it0-f53.google.com with SMTP id p4-v6so469747itf.2 for ; Wed, 27 Jun 2018 07:39:17 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ccc.com; s=google; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=qugw1DKEPi7eMdkp3jvAaV8zYLBml7I00H2p7kHecaU=; b=hDnLy1OZeGt0FTd2731SWDRgtXHcs19JTvfhKuj0tI5rRq1jjN/B+7taCGL6Lunu3p /vpennZJVAzfw364SpALvY78hAfcutEaSUPhj/CC19Gb0b5GUFhkurlftPOsg4BDoLpn U4DYfgt4u2pqQxfLHzRuEMHoNLuNPwsUbYZ4c= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=qugw1DKEPi7eMdkp3jvAaV8zYLBml7I00H2p7kHecaU=; b=EuxU1mQS+rU3Ekqn9GbyzvAaK9c4TKB8DpNZziWdG+I8UCaOvAoWfF233hNHdOWc4J 77TIbdMoBMFbAsBVYyIOhrL2lcpA4XoiXj6C7p0YY5Wl7EuFLKMp94FKJ6JQzKiyXziu Nh+xAHD8ZHYFpb8gSa2Sy/iRbkNsN28QPhwOzx+YHnGIpj+89hkg2WSO5osAl1n6wjd1 oaxBYAJ4XjgPaSV4gbVaZCK3J75kpCT4fAh5Mf+e5Si08Vm2Mj+iOECs3mBWdsC3nHeG 2enFdgAGD5kuA/ovsfdZj6d38cEDi4aVUXuQLD1uUnieLncsbGIvYTa/hwfJQhm3g68i iuPQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APt69E2737B38GeuERnOFS+uHtoz/EGL2cs+Jlrm1qXfdaYY97ByFluz N/SFhPmrbK/lECwPdb4pdMcVZu9nFRCuL3/adHBZsx9m X-Google-Smtp-Source: ADUXVKJIaQhY2OZS6mw01VbhmsZineoHOEo6gL5+vOYT1dWbYbsH3ASCiZwGzVJS5V3D/ZmrVFstJlRkjjtta8C+npI= X-Received: by 2002:a24:987:: with SMTP id 129-v6mr5278275itm.136.1530110357132; Wed, 27 Jun 2018 07:39:17 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a4f:ca8a:0:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Wed, 27 Jun 2018 07:38:46 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <1f8043fd-e8d6-a5e6-5849-022d1a41f5bf@kilonet.net> <20180626215012.GE8150@mcvoy.com> From: Clem Cole Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2018 10:38:46 -0400 Message-ID: To: TUHS main list Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000004e02c0056fa09456" Subject: Re: [TUHS] PDP-11 legacy, C, and modern architectures X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" --0000000000004e02c0056fa09456 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I need to get a keyboard who keys don't stick.... sigh.... Clem =E1=90=A7 On Wed, Jun 27, 2018 at 10:33 AM, Clem Cole wrote: > I guess my take on it is mixed. I see some of his points but over all I > disagree with most of them. I firmly believe if you look at anything lon= g > enough you will find flaws. There is no perfect. I think Fortran, C, > even Algol are credits for more what people were able to think about at t= he > time and how well they lasted. As I have said in other places, Fortran = is > not going away. Clem Cole's answer is the Future of Fortran Programming > Dead > also > applies to C. It's just not broken and he's wrong. Go, Rust *et al* > is not going to magically overtake C, just as Fortran as not been displac= ed > in my lifetime (BTW, I >>like<< both Go and Rust and think they are > interesting new languages). He thinks C is not long a low level languag= e > because when Ken abstracted the PDP-7 into B and then Dennis abstracted t= he > PDP-11 into C, the systems were simple. The HW designers are in a giant > fake out at this point, so things that used to work like 'register' no > longer make sense. Now its the compiler that binds to the primitives > available to the functions under the covers and there is more to use than > the PDP-11 and PDP-7 offered. But wait, that is not always true. So = I > think he's wrong. I think you leave the language alone and if the HW > moves on great. But if we have a simple system like you have on the Amt= el > chips that most Arduino's and lots of other embedded C programs use, C is > very low level and most his arguments go away. > > Cken > =E1=90=A7 > --0000000000004e02c0056fa09456 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I need to get a keyboard who keys don't stick.... s= igh....=C2=A0 Clem
3D""=E1=90=A7

On Wed, Jun 27, 2018 at 10:33 AM, Cle= m Cole <clemc@ccc.com> wrote:
=
I guess my take on it is mixed.=C2=A0 =C2=A0I see some = of his points but over all I disagree with most of them.=C2=A0 I firmly bel= ieve if you look at anything long enough you will find flaws.=C2=A0 There i= s no perfect.=C2=A0 =C2=A0I think Fortran, C, even Algol are credits for mo= re what people were able to think about at the time and how well they laste= d.=C2=A0 =C2=A0As I have said in other places, Fortran is not going away. <= a href=3D"https://www.quora.com/Is-the-future-of-Fortran-programming-dead/a= nswer/Clem-Cole" target=3D"_blank">Clem Cole's answer is the Future of = Fortran Programming Dead=C2=A0also applies to C.=C2=A0 =C2=A0It's j= ust not broken and he's wrong.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Go, Rust et al is not= going to magically overtake C, just as Fortran as not been displaced in my= lifetime (BTW, I >>like<< both Go and Rust and think they are = interesting new languages).=C2=A0 =C2=A0He thinks C is not long a low level= language because when Ken abstracted the PDP-7 into B and then Dennis abst= racted the PDP-11 into C, the systems were simple.=C2=A0 The HW designers a= re in a giant fake out at this point, so things that used to work like '= ;register' no longer make sense.=C2=A0 Now its the compiler that binds = to the primitives available to the functions under the covers and there is = more to use than the PDP-11 and PDP-7 offered.=C2=A0 =C2=A0 But wait, that = is not always true.=C2=A0 =C2=A0So I think he's wrong.=C2=A0 =C2=A0I th= ink you leave the language alone and if the HW moves on great.=C2=A0 =C2=A0= But if we have a simple system like you have on the Amtel chips that most A= rduino's and lots of other embedded C programs use, C is very low level= and most his arguments go away.

Cken
3D""= =E1=90=A7

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