From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [45.79.103.53]) by inbox.vuxu.org (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id 62f0263e for ; Mon, 16 Sep 2019 17:25:06 +0000 (UTC) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 51C129478D; Tue, 17 Sep 2019 03:25:05 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5CE39479D; Tue, 17 Sep 2019 03:24:56 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=fail reason="signature verification failed" (1024-bit key; unprotected) header.d=ccc.com header.i=@ccc.com header.b="ZkPHDspr"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 2E4139BF74; Tue, 17 Sep 2019 03:24:54 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-wr1-f51.google.com (mail-wr1-f51.google.com [209.85.221.51]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 770C49479D for ; Tue, 17 Sep 2019 03:24:51 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-wr1-f51.google.com with SMTP id i18so243562wru.11 for ; Mon, 16 Sep 2019 10:24:51 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ccc.com; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=5zCi/NkYz6eWlk3BvxA17QBi75+POhCruKJherACQHw=; b=ZkPHDsprzQizspQ60k913pB8/DiHEKa3tIYfb0rbJojECduDf3l4zbz+ft5LIY71R5 DPjfmd56ujbPf0vqQpDmTn/gfc/l4VchU4q4oHKeY4/LN2SguP5cTG9Pp7aaq/0tQoNo ZQOxxnXorxoJiP0NxOMZFc9pqUAWqix0UQPAo= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=5zCi/NkYz6eWlk3BvxA17QBi75+POhCruKJherACQHw=; b=RGnJ1CXlN0MUTNd92ZItEpmVtT75Glw7/J6gwwN0bhECRKJmSkfDMYhvOh+vhiBDPk 8bGCzz10dqd6CYWd3vGJtdoKWgMezIR9TSYQMzWOvVn1uuDL6PCcyEoYSPQCGgVC8zrN pu34+/SqKMK6Dzns0dP+ad60qTeWisVHz5hlgQ0DZQqYeES5EGICnFDJFHJmX6/8FHLD OYTvp0MvxTt0j7GXDnM53ZkHQ7Yodqbh0Y6GygakqCaH7tBGARw9RhRFjE1hokDFNGnq PLlRsfgQNqWTS9Jf7m/lCSWN7KFqV/KF/HgNRiA734bv13HIUQV+RYeJYX3IXYnJmGkV OXOQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVfP/c9klPsY3pdUonkHJi1rwPVoFEqyttW4CgjDIliFI9w6iAy t/+RW94b26kcYU2XB+Kqm38v1gDqz4UKIE80AHJIuwl7Gkx7jA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzsu5ojqtiScQ0XS4tI0+ocvYm+KPGtoOKsj9Yc8rlCW6qW12TxY2b+S2B474rsD6nPQmOlQxpL0Q9EvRJaBCY= X-Received: by 2002:adf:f150:: with SMTP id y16mr678268wro.71.1568654690015; Mon, 16 Sep 2019 10:24:50 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <201909160552.x8G5qBYK025195@freefriends.org> <20190916145122.GH2046@mcvoy.com> <20190916161040.GM2046@mcvoy.com> <201909161616.x8GGG4Fb020760@darkstar.fourwinds.com> <20190916162614.GO2046@mcvoy.com> <20190916164502.GQ2046@mcvoy.com> In-Reply-To: <20190916164502.GQ2046@mcvoy.com> From: Clem Cole Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2019 13:24:23 -0400 Message-ID: To: Larry McVoy Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000092f1cd0592aee156" Subject: Re: [TUHS] earliest Unix roff X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" --00000000000092f1cd0592aee156 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Sep 16, 2019 at 12:45 PM Larry McVoy wrote: > Yeah, except they didn't create their own city, they pooped all over a > different one. peed *vs.* pooped - one is marking territory while the other is destroying it. It is interesting that both analogs work here, however. There is no defense for what they did. If they did the > right thing they would have created a markup language that could have > produced info files and man files. > +1 and that's why it is even more difficult to understand. Being polite and 'fitting in' would really not been any harder than being like Jon's father-in-law. > .... > Those who defend the choice of info over man just aren't real Unix people= . I'd maybe say it as they don't want to be real Unix people and fit it with the rest. > And that's fine, Unix isn't the only choice, they can go > run some other OS and be happy. Frankly, trying to turn a Lisp Machine into a "Unix box" would have been as much of sin, in my eyes. Hey, I'm thrilled to see rms and his friends can build and purchase as many LMI box as he would like (But I do observe, the 'technically superior system,' in the end, wasn't very economical). I really don't mind bringing things over (like more, or job control, or command/filename completion that all came from other systems). That is really adding value to the new system (UNIX in this case). But it's just rude to thrust info > into a Unix system. And lame because they could have parsed man > pages into info docs and then they are adopting the Unix way of > doing things and actually adding value. touch=C3=A9 As Larry and Jon have said better than I, it was the seemly effect of tryin= g to replace man with info that I just don't understand. As Larry has said if they had made a way go from texinfo to man, even if it had been a little rough on the edges, I might have grumbled, but I would have tried to use it. The truth is today, like many other Unix hacker I know, if I am offered a new tool but using it means that I am being led down a path to us= e info/texinfo, I rethink if I want to use that new tool or not. It's a big turn off for me to want to learn to use such a tool since I know the authors have made no attempt to integrate it into a traditional UNIX workflow if they have not built proper man pages, much less written traditional docs. --00000000000092f1cd0592aee156 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On M= on, Sep 16, 2019 at 12:45 PM Larry McVoy <lm@mcvoy.com> wrote:
Yeah, except they didn't c= reate their own city, they pooped all over a
different one.=C2=A0
peed vs. pooped -=C2=A0 one is marking = territory=C2=A0while the other is destroying it.
It is interesting that both analogs work here, however.=

There is no defense for what = they did.=C2=A0 If they did the
right thing they would have created a markup language that could have
produced info files and man files.
+1 and that's why it is even more difficult to underst= and.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Being polite and 'fitting in' would really not bee= n any harder than being like Jon's father-in-law.
=C2=A0
....
Those who defend the choice of info over man just aren&#= 39;t real Unix people.
I'd maybe say it as they don't want to be real Unix peopl= e and fit it with the rest.

=C2=A0
And that&= #39;s fine, Unix isn't the only choice, they can go
run some other OS and be happy.=C2=A0
Frankl= y, trying to turn a Lisp Machine into a "Unix box" would have bee= n as much of sin, in my eyes.=C2=A0Hey, I'm thrilled to see rms and his friends can build and pur= chase as many LMI box as he would like (But I do observe, the 'technica= lly superior system,' in the end, wasn't very economical).=C2=A0 = =C2=A0I really don't mind bringing things over (like more, or job contr= ol, or command/filename completion that all came from other systems).=C2=A0= That is really adding value to the new system (UNIX in this case).=C2=A0 <= /span>


But it's just rude to thrust info
into a Unix system.=C2=A0 And lame because they could have parsed man
pages into info docs and then they are adopting the Unix way of
doing things and actually adding value.
touch=C3=A9=C2=A0

As<= font color=3D"#0000ff">=C2=A0Larry and Jon have said better than I, it was = the seemly effect of trying to replace man with info that I just= don't understand.=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0As Larry has said if they had mad= e a way go from texinfo to man, even if it had been a little rough on the e= dges, I might have grumbled, but I would have tried to use it.=C2=A0 The tr= uth is today, like many other Unix hacker I know, if I am offered a new= tool but using it means that I am being led down a path to=C2=A0use= info/texinfo, I rethink if I want to use that=C2=A0new tool or = not.=C2=A0 =C2=A0It's a big turn off for me to want to learn to use= such a tool since I know the authors have made no attempt to integrate it = into a traditional UNIX workflow if they have not built proper man pages, m= uch less written traditional docs.
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