From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.1 (2015-04-28) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.4 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU,HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,HTML_FONT_LOW_CONTRAST, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_24,HTML_MESSAGE,HTML_OBFUSCATE_05_10,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=no autolearn_force=no version=3.4.1 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [45.79.103.53]) by inbox.vuxu.org (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id 19fb55a9 for ; Wed, 27 Jun 2018 14:34:43 +0000 (UTC) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 0334EA189F; Thu, 28 Jun 2018 00:34:43 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D90B1A181A; Thu, 28 Jun 2018 00:34:26 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=pass (1024-bit key; unprotected) header.d=ccc.com header.i=@ccc.com header.b=AgjBFn+D; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 0A514A181A; Thu, 28 Jun 2018 00:34:25 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-it0-f41.google.com (mail-it0-f41.google.com [209.85.214.41]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 08F529EDF1 for ; Thu, 28 Jun 2018 00:34:24 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-it0-f41.google.com with SMTP id j135-v6so7773436itj.1 for ; Wed, 27 Jun 2018 07:34:23 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ccc.com; s=google; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=hWcDyKtD1JChnpnGKfXxgGvps8/6O5VLoPvBdjXn0a8=; b=AgjBFn+DS2Zo4yeaVDfCqMgbsLYr2YhSy6Z/4I6fDvBGJ5jYVwJ6jEr+KIHjpENZ/a otSWbLeYh4bGH8AQlUvLNP4yUhgkvkhMJbFFMoEI+gPSJq0TN0V6Ft08JlVt+Pgc3emo sd1xIU7nD+XFqw7F/2bNRTSMGF+skVJWHMQLc= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=hWcDyKtD1JChnpnGKfXxgGvps8/6O5VLoPvBdjXn0a8=; b=NKsj2FEJPlHUGvq651Jr7jjmwv29oIguh6zZ2sWTaxXdgpfNVq3zJ3xVZcwy63TWpy uU8AdoUCc3M6uAS2VN+rCxdNTOu4wVjvqsyCRYt1gdupNTPgWokSRxD+LpDprRQBR+wH aizntcfzDKKovVOxfcaNPnSGErultaov/AlHGck89LqIbbv8OEfar+r1RuZVuYNQd7z6 nF/EPCir3UUB2GSlB+Dioknx9EhqPvcxM7to9KqGP5LpYwHDfpBeFKhoDlFur7iKiOb6 siUBZe/rvjJ8muNzcjXwE0xdma/yUVud3o3/3D/3TorsbO/8tf9ik3dftvJ9JQWRXZJ5 jVrg== X-Gm-Message-State: APt69E2YRzlju54AKT8VUYfo59Bg68s8YXJNIkWvxSa99DyVcUyqvMRM ftObOKv6k6zVMlzqCsSedQYH8oqZBLnNuezFpVMm/CEuDFM= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ADUXVKLFXR+mBP+4W0VP6ONVF1ZoNJr6ob0G2/qOtU1FzFS3UsTiIYrQA8xG25iB2wTOER3HbCbM0TGufdmIyEumal0= X-Received: by 2002:a24:284a:: with SMTP id h71-v6mr5089967ith.105.1530110062982; Wed, 27 Jun 2018 07:34:22 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a4f:ca8a:0:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Wed, 27 Jun 2018 07:33:52 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <1f8043fd-e8d6-a5e6-5849-022d1a41f5bf@kilonet.net> <20180626215012.GE8150@mcvoy.com> From: Clem Cole Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2018 10:33:52 -0400 Message-ID: To: TUHS main list Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000c58ace056fa08252" Subject: Re: [TUHS] PDP-11 legacy, C, and modern architectures X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" --000000000000c58ace056fa08252 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I guess my take on it is mixed. I see some of his points but over all I disagree with most of them. I firmly believe if you look at anything long enough you will find flaws. There is no perfect. I think Fortran, C, even Algol are credits for more what people were able to think about at the time and how well they lasted. As I have said in other places, Fortran is not going away. Clem Cole's answer is the Future of Fortran Programming Dea= d also applies to C. It's just not broken and he's wrong. Go, Rust *et al* is not going to magically overtake C, just as Fortran as not been displaced in my lifetime (BTW, I >>like<< both Go and Rust and think they are interesting new languages). He thinks C is not long a low level language because when Ken abstracted the PDP-7 into B and then Dennis abstracted the PDP-11 into C, the systems were simple. The HW designers are in a giant fake out at this point, so things that used to work like 'register' no longer make sense. Now its the compiler that binds to the primitives available to the functions under the covers and there is more to use than the PDP-11 and PDP-7 offered. But wait, that is not always true. So I think he's wrong. I think you leave the language alone and if the HW moves on great. But if we have a simple system like you have on the Amtel chips that most Arduino's and lots of other embedded C programs use, C is very low level and most his arguments go away. Cken =E1=90=A7 --000000000000c58ace056fa08252 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I guess my take on it is mixed.=C2=A0 =C2=A0I see some = of his points but over all I disagree with most of them.=C2=A0 I firmly bel= ieve if you look at anything long enough you will find flaws.=C2=A0 There i= s no perfect.=C2=A0 =C2=A0I think Fortran, C, even Algol are credits for mo= re what people were able to think about at the time and how well they laste= d.=C2=A0 =C2=A0As I have said in other places, Fortran is not going away. <= a href=3D"https://www.quora.com/Is-the-future-of-Fortran-programming-dead/a= nswer/Clem-Cole">Clem Cole's answer is the Future of Fortran Programmin= g Dead=C2=A0also applies to C.=C2=A0 =C2=A0It's just not broken and= he's wrong.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Go, Rust et al is not going to magicall= y overtake C, just as Fortran as not been displaced in my lifetime (BTW, I = >>like<< both Go and Rust and think they are interesting new la= nguages).=C2=A0 =C2=A0He thinks C is not long a low level language because = when Ken abstracted the PDP-7 into B and then Dennis abstracted the PDP-11 = into C, the systems were simple.=C2=A0 The HW designers are in a giant fake= out at this point, so things that used to work like 'register' no = longer make sense.=C2=A0 Now its the compiler that binds to the primitives = available to the functions under the covers and there is more to use than t= he PDP-11 and PDP-7 offered.=C2=A0 =C2=A0 But wait, that is not always true= .=C2=A0 =C2=A0So I think he's wrong.=C2=A0 =C2=A0I think you leave the = language alone and if the HW moves on great.=C2=A0 =C2=A0But if we have a s= imple system like you have on the Amtel chips that most Arduino's and l= ots of other embedded C programs use, C is very low level and most his argu= ments go away.

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