From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HTML_FONT_LOW_CONTRAST,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 6483 invoked from network); 11 Sep 2023 03:37:59 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (50.116.15.146) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 11 Sep 2023 03:37:59 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C37304311A; Mon, 11 Sep 2023 13:37:54 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-ua1-x932.google.com (mail-ua1-x932.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::932]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 754BB43119 for ; Mon, 11 Sep 2023 13:37:51 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-ua1-x932.google.com with SMTP id a1e0cc1a2514c-7a25071d633so1823672241.0 for ; Sun, 10 Sep 2023 20:37:51 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ccc.com; s=google; t=1694403470; x=1695008270; darn=tuhs.org; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=BTCl+Vr/CscPfmjfjqK4ouSXRvxDxem7Gt4PZhjSR28=; b=DG21cEzdgJZS7VBlteCkmSvGo/sn8SRsMzyEUIJH01W+zJkAf05yBmnvLym9ymP67p rX+eQOBMSispYI93Bx1A2qwQN/VOBPbZaJ3JGm+jemnPwBhvP4COxZJ2Yo2Y4S0BCsV2 wCALcfFQKfGruSYjFMK5aToIY2Fi3XZHbJ1zA= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1694403470; x=1695008270; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=BTCl+Vr/CscPfmjfjqK4ouSXRvxDxem7Gt4PZhjSR28=; b=w9ybwTB/qHj6qFcmE9dIQuyJBQBfJe90xxinvXHCST+HnyYcUR7qJmCzfGru/neIx7 QKlBSJhYLkn0kMfXvGynHmf91/bP+c6jWxr6Sz5D7hddrZwvf+/BPUyHwz4tJ7dUytRw e/k1acX3rDHSA9ADgs0XToAbmNbAK5Hs0bdTYh0tgiDkbuKjKDilFZ17dgkL0vqHnDC3 6sU7tR5bRzKPDLixZM19LuXVDkDsdoYw6jYm7h+VBNdQoRQNGN+aSP6ozqkyE0W++anS gUquSIFkQPq0YG3MRoGYqRWIuYTuJPKgB5zcGrcFNLLHyZ4EsZ0wJ51rz9A93kF9CQxv XReQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YyENfBWtvDfkHTxowJaoCVP6/4IpRmI4dTJy+LHqkRhCZ74rsam gj+ovCBifoxUW7QdN96cMffLQjo1BDsqy6CMaXkcxG4HWtTMC8gUfGU= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IGFvgJq86tMDPmtTcG2sZ5qwHN5TtneOjVrZbsAQt/25spJnLPJC2XcFsJ8+0jhpKhIARy9ZOtjKPhiAqUSklk= X-Received: by 2002:a67:fdc4:0:b0:44e:96f8:cc9 with SMTP id l4-20020a67fdc4000000b0044e96f80cc9mr7227374vsq.18.1694403470297; Sun, 10 Sep 2023 20:37:50 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <8cLEEhdmkOHtKBxAfMVu6TQNyw3XQ6paWadcOywtb43zx--LshnfV0tYzcIqZGf_IBODnckLjTG-TETOHBWq8sOABYbJBXlzaYDahigXpm4=@protonmail.com> In-Reply-To: <8cLEEhdmkOHtKBxAfMVu6TQNyw3XQ6paWadcOywtb43zx--LshnfV0tYzcIqZGf_IBODnckLjTG-TETOHBWq8sOABYbJBXlzaYDahigXpm4=@protonmail.com> From: Clem Cole Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2023 23:37:39 -0400 Message-ID: To: segaloco Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000f421f006050d0c77" Message-ID-Hash: YDGMGJ6XNYNZARWTAQDE5J3BPWSKBGUB X-Message-ID-Hash: YDGMGJ6XNYNZARWTAQDE5J3BPWSKBGUB X-MailFrom: clemc@ccc.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: Current Ownership of 3B/WECo Computer IPs List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: --000000000000f421f006050d0c77 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable My point was it was not clear at all other than then NCR deal would have added to the confusion. For instance I know that one of my brothers who was doing communications chips at ATT Allentown PA that we originally for the 3B but later licensed to Apple (became FireWire I think) stayed with ATT but one or more of his buddies ended up moving to Ohio to become part of NCR because that was were more SCSI and FC chips were being done. So like lots of big firms things were added and subtracted as different deals were made. So I=E2=80=99m not sure there is an easy linear progressi= on and while Nokia at this point clearly owns some of this but don=E2=80=99t be su= rprised that like Unix - there are multiple firms with IP claims and unless something happens where it takes a court to sort it out, I=E2=80=99m not so= sure any of here is going to be able to give you a definitive answer. Sent from a handheld expect more typos than usual On Sun, Sep 10, 2023 at 10:58 PM segaloco via TUHS wrote: > Whoops, my bad, hadn't considered NCR in this train of thought. > > And it sounds like the Nokia stream is a compelling direction, what with > the 3B20 emulation and all that, it was a telecom processor after all. Gl= ad > to see I'm not just stumped, that it can be a little unclear. > > - Matt G. > > P.S. I realize my last P.S. may be more opinion oriented and/or > controversial..just wanna recognize that oversight, no harm intended, > different discussion for a different time > > ------- Original Message ------- > > On Sunday, September 10th, 2023 at 6:43 PM, Clem Cole > wrote: > > > > On Sun, Sep 10, 2023 at 9:11=E2=80=AFPM segaloco via TUHS = wrote: > >> Is there a clear, current owner of these WECo hardware IPs, or have thos= e >> waters grown even murkier than those of UNIX in the times after AT&T pro= per? > > I have never seen an unofficial, much less an official, reckoning, but if > you discover/unearth something, it will be interesting to read. > > That said, you left out one piece of history. Please remember that AT&T > bought NCR in the mid-1980s (and eventually spun it off a few years later= ). > The UNIX HW development was moved into the new division of the old NCR, > including the 3B series work, the WE32000, and some other semiconductor I= Ps. > > FWIW: That occurred when I consulted for NCR's Chief Architect (Lee Hovel= ) > in the mid-late 80s (I did some of the analysis for Lee on what IP was > there). But that all settled out after my contract expired, so I don't kn= ow > how it finally settled - other than I'm reasonably sure that most of the = 3B > and chip development reported up through an ex-NCR exec after purchase. > Those teams and their associated IP were folded into things like the old > NCR semi-conductor, NCR Computer, *etc*.. IIRC Also, a few NCR > communications products were moved out of the old NCR team and into the o= ld > WE folks. > > So .... I would not be surprised if when NCR was later spun back out, som= e > of the old AT&T IP (such as the computer HW and chip IP) went with them, > just as when Novell was sold the UNIX SW IP. Of course, later, Lucent, ne= y > Alcatel, ney Nokia - got the communications IP. > > =E1=90=A7 > > > --000000000000f421f006050d0c77 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
My point was it was not clear at all other than then NCR = deal would have added to the confusion. For instance I know that one of my = brothers who was doing communications chips at ATT Allentown PA that we ori= ginally for the 3B but later licensed to Apple (became FireWire I think) st= ayed with ATT but one or more of his buddies ended up moving to Ohio to bec= ome part of NCR because that was were more SCSI and FC chips were being don= e.=C2=A0


So like lots of big firms things were added and subtracted as = different deals were made.=C2=A0 So I=E2=80=99m not sure there is an easy l= inear progression and while Nokia at this point clearly owns some of this b= ut don=E2=80=99t be surprised that like Unix - there are multiple firms wit= h IP claims and unless something happens where it takes a court to sort it = out, I=E2=80=99m not so sure any of here is going to be able to give you a = definitive answer.=C2=A0




=
Sent from a handheld expect more typos than usual


On Sun, Sep 10, 2023 at 10:58 PM segaloco via TU= HS <tuhs@tuhs.org> wrote:
Whoops, my bad, hadn't considered NCR in this train o= f thought.
=
And it= sounds like the Nokia stream is a compelling direction, what with the 3B20= emulation and all that, it was a telecom processor after all. Glad to see = I'm not just stumped, that it can be a little unclear.

- Matt G.

P.S. I realize my last P.S. may be more= opinion oriented and/or controversial..just wanna recognize that oversight= , no harm intended, different discussion for a different time

------- Original Message -------

On Sunday, September 10th, 2023 at 6:43 PM, Clem Cole <clemc@ccc.com> wrote:


On Sun, Sep 10, = 2023 at 9:11=E2=80=AFPM segaloco via TUHS <tuhs@tuhs.org> wrote:
Is there a clear, = current owner of these WECo hardware IPs, or have those waters grown even m= urkier than those of UNIX in the times after AT&T proper?
I have never seen an unofficial, much less an official, reck= oning, but if you discover/unearth something, it will be interesting to rea= d.

That said, you left out = one piece of history. Please remember that AT&T bought NCR in the mid-= 1980s (and eventually spun it off a few years later). The UNIX HW developme= nt was moved into the new division of the old NCR, including the 3B series = work, the WE32000, and some other semiconductor IPs.
<= br>
FWIW: That occurred when I consulted for NCR's= Chief Architect (Lee Hovel) in the mid-late 80s (I did some of the analysi= s for Lee on what IP was there). But that all settled out after my contrac= t expired, so I don't know how it finally settled - other than I'm = reasonably sure that most of the 3B and chip development reported up throug= h an ex-NCR exec after purchase. Those teams and their associated IP were f= olded into things like the old NCR semi-conductor, NCR Computer, etc= .. IIRC Also, a few NCR communications products were moved out of the old= NCR team and into the old WE folks.

=
So .... I would not be surprised if when NCR was later spun back = out, some of the old AT&T IP (such as the computer HW and chip IP) went= with them, just as when Novell was sold the UNIX SW IP. Of course, later,= Lucent, ney Alcatel, ney Nokia - got the communications IP.
<= div>

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