Today I came across an article about the MGR window system for Unix: https://hack.org/mc/mgr/ One thing that interested me was a note that some versions worked on the Macintosh: > The window system ran on many different hardware platforms, at least > these: Sun 3/xx workstations running SunOS, which was the the original > development platform, Sun SPARCstations (SunOS and then ported by me to > Solaris), Intel x86 based PCs (Coherent, Minix, FreeBSD or Linux), > Atari ST (under MiNT), AT&T UnixPC (SysV) and the Macintosh. As the owner of a Macintosh Plus, I think it would be a very interesting thing to experiment with, but I haven't had much luck finding any more information about it. Does anyone know more about MGR, particularly on the Mac? That page has the source for MGR 0.69, but there's no mention of the Macintosh in it (aside from comments about how it was supported on older versions...) John
On 8/4/22 12:45 PM, John Floren wrote: > Today I came across an article about the MGR window system for Unix: > https://hack.org/mc/mgr/ > > One thing that interested me was a note that some versions worked on the > Macintosh: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22457846 gives the origins I probably have the code in the backups of the archive that I used to maintain on the Apple VAX at that time.
On 8/4/22 1:18 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 8/4/22 12:45 PM, John Floren wrote: >> Today I came across an article about the MGR window system for Unix: >> https://hack.org/mc/mgr/ >> >> One thing that interested me was a note that some versions worked on the >> Macintosh: > > https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22457846 > > gives the origins > > I probably have the code in the backups of the archive that I used to maintain on the Apple VAX > at that time. you can find the original c.s.unix files here http://sources.vsta.org/comp.sources.unix/volume17/mgr i think I may need to push this to bitsavers. the c.s.unix archive was a little more difficult to find than I thought.
On Thu, Aug 4, 2022 at 3:46 PM John Floren <john@jfloren.net> wrote:
> [snip]
> Does anyone know more about MGR, particularly on the Mac? That page has
> the source for MGR 0.69, but there's no mention of the Macintosh in it
> (aside from comments about how it was supported on older versions...)
I got it working once under FreeBSD back in the 4.x days.
It wasn't particularly notable, or at least didn't leave much of an
impression; it presented a pretty "standard" (and primitive!)
graphical experience. I believe it was monochrome, with amber
on black.
I don't know anything about it on the Mac, I'm afraid; I suspect it
probably ran in a Window under Finder, but that is pure speculation.
- Dan C.
> On Aug 4, 2022, at 2:14 PM, Dan Cross <crossd@gmail.com> wrote: > > On Thu, Aug 4, 2022 at 3:46 PM John Floren <john@jfloren.net> wrote: >> [snip] >> Does anyone know more about MGR, particularly on the Mac? That page has >> the source for MGR 0.69, but there's no mention of the Macintosh in it >> (aside from comments about how it was supported on older versions...) > > I got it working once under FreeBSD back in the 4.x days. > > It wasn't particularly notable, or at least didn't leave much of an > impression; it presented a pretty "standard" (and primitive!) > graphical experience. I believe it was monochrome, with amber > on black. > > I don't know anything about it on the Mac, I'm afraid; I suspect it > probably ran in a Window under Finder, but that is pure speculation. From its wikipedia entry: The initial Macintosh port was done on a Macintosh Plus computer using the Lightspeed C compiler. It was a hybrid port in that many of the low-level operations were passed on to QuickDraw instead of using the internal bitmap code. The application did not conform to the Macintosh user interface guidelines as it took over the entire screen. The initial version used either available serial port as the communications channel. A later update of the port could use either ethernet or serial communications. [No reference to how this was obtained] MGR reference manual (from Stephen A. Uhler's home page): https://sau.homeip.net/papers/mgrman.pdf Architecture and Design of the MGR Window System: https://sau.homeip.net/papers/arch.pdf Here it says a port to Macintosh-Plus was done in two weeks.
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1009 bytes --] On 8/4/22 2:29 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > you can find the original c.s.unix files here > http://sources.vsta.org/comp.sources.unix/volume17/mgr Oh ... that's going to be a slippery slope. I've already downloaded 108 MB and plan on integrating the messages into a Maildir where -- I think -- my MUA will make it trivial to read messages. }:-) I looked through the index.2 file from volume 29 for volumes 28, 27, and part of 26 where I found half a dozen or more things that I want to investigate. I suspect I'm going to be printing that listing and highlighting things of interest. I think there's a rabbit hole at the bottom of the slippery slope that I'm already sliding down. > i think I may need to push this to bitsavers. the c.s.unix archive > was a little more difficult to find than I thought. Is that your site? Or someone else's. The URL tends to indicate the latter. I ask because I'd be happy to mirror it on my site. -- Grant. . . . unix || die [-- Attachment #2: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature --] [-- Type: application/pkcs7-signature, Size: 4017 bytes --]
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1177 bytes --] On 8/4/22 4:07 PM, Bakul Shah wrote: > From its wikipedia entry: > > The initial Macintosh port was done on a Macintosh Plus computer > using the Lightspeed C compiler. It was a hybrid port in that many > of the low-level operations were passed on to QuickDraw instead of > using the internal bitmap code. The application did not conform to > the Macintosh user interface guidelines as it took over the entire > screen. The initial version used either available serial port as the > communications channel. A later update of the port could use either > ethernet or serial communications. The idea of something doing graphics over a serial port is intriguing to me. Eliding some form of IP over a dial up connection. The closest thing that comes to mind is Sixel or ReGIS graphics. > [No reference to how this was obtained] > > MGR reference manual (from Stephen A. Uhler's home page): > https://sau.homeip.net/papers/mgrman.pdf > > Architecture and Design of the MGR Window System: > https://sau.homeip.net/papers/arch.pdf > > Here it says a port to Macintosh-Plus was done in two weeks. :-) -- Grant. . . . unix || die [-- Attachment #2: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature --] [-- Type: application/pkcs7-signature, Size: 4017 bytes --]
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 280 bytes --] I think if you search for "comp.sources.unix archive" or maybe "mod.sources" you should find lots of places. I don't have a copy:) /r$, moderator thereto PS: Uhler presented MGR at Usenix. A year or two later he presented spiff, a "spiffy diff" and he got much better. [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 481 bytes --]
> On Aug 4, 2022, at 4:07 PM, Grant Taylor via TUHS <tuhs@tuhs.org> wrote: > > On 8/4/22 2:29 PM, Al Kossow wrote: >> i think I may need to push this to bitsavers. the c.s.unix archive was a little more difficult to find than I thought. > > Is that your site? Or someone else's. The URL tends to indicate the latter. I believe that is Andy Valencia's site. He is the author of VSTa microkernel. > I ask because I'd be happy to mirror it on my site. I think Usenet bits are archived on archive.org. For instance: https://archive.org/details/cdrom-usernet-sources-newsgroups-1994-10-1 You can also find them on googlegroups but don't know what damage they may have done. I FTPed all comp.sources.{unix,x} posts from DEC's gatekeeper about 20 years back. I still prefer local copies of things I may want to check out again!
On 8/4/22 4:21 PM, Bakul Shah wrote: > I think Usenet bits are archived on archive.org. Forgot about the Walnut Creek Sources CD from 1992 https://archive.org/details/CDROM_March92
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 347 bytes --] On 8/4/22 5:42 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > Forgot about the Walnut Creek Sources CD from 1992 > > https://archive.org/details/CDROM_March92 LOL You all are feeding a -- let's go with -- questionable hobby. At least it's cheaper than a hole in the water that you pour money into. a.k.a. a boat. -- Grant. . . . unix || die [-- Attachment #2: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature --] [-- Type: application/pkcs7-signature, Size: 4017 bytes --]
On Thu, Aug 04, 2022 at 04:21:28PM -0700, Bakul Shah wrote:
>
> > On Aug 4, 2022, at 4:07 PM, Grant Taylor via TUHS <tuhs@tuhs.org> wrote:
> >
> > On 8/4/22 2:29 PM, Al Kossow wrote:
> >> i think I may need to push this to bitsavers. the c.s.unix archive was a little more difficult to find than I thought.
> >
> > Is that your site? Or someone else's. The URL tends to indicate the latter.
>
> I believe that is Andy Valencia's site. He is the author of VSTa microkernel.
>
> > I ask because I'd be happy to mirror it on my site.
>
> I think Usenet bits are archived on archive.org. For instance:
> https://archive.org/details/cdrom-usernet-sources-newsgroups-1994-10-1
>
> You can also find them on googlegroups but don't know what damage they may
> have done.
Oh, the damage that Google has done to netnews is immense. Remember
dejanews? With their spiffy search interface that would let you look for
stuff in date ranges? Yeah, google bought dejanews, killed the search
(because theirs was "better", it most definitely is not), and then did
google groups which is complete garbage.
On Thu, Aug 04, 2022 at 05:51:18PM -0600, Grant Taylor via TUHS wrote: > At least it's cheaper than a hole in the water that you pour money into. > a.k.a. a boat. See my signature :) I bought new so most of the money poured was up front, I paid 10x what a buddy of mine did who has the same boat (Grady-White 228 if anyone cares) but mine just works and he is constantly working on his. I got the better deal if you care about your time. I want to fish, not wrench. -- --- Larry McVoy Retired to fishing http://www.mcvoy.com/lm/boat
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 816 bytes --] > On 5 Aug 2022, at 9:09 am, Grant Taylor via TUHS <tuhs@tuhs.org> wrote: > > > The idea of something doing graphics over a serial port is intriguing to me. Eliding some form of IP over a dial up connection. > > The closest thing that comes to mind is Sixel or ReGIS graphics. In the early to mid 1980s I used Tektronix storage terminals hooked up to a PDP-11 and/or VAX. And we also had an AED terminal that did raster graphics. All via serial comms. There's a bunch of AED documentation online, including this... http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/aed/brochures/AED_767_Brochure_Jun82.pdf <http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/aed/brochures/AED_767_Brochure_Jun82.pdf> (searching for AED graphics terminal will lead you to the user manual which has a lot more detail and electrical specs and so on) [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 1535 bytes --]
On 8/4/22 5:37 PM, Andrew Newman wrote: > There's a bunch of AED documentation online, including this... > > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/aed/brochures/AED_767_Brochure_Jun82.pdf <http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/aed/brochures/AED_767_Brochure_Jun82.pdf> I worked at AED before going to Apple, to stay sort of window related, the last project I worked on at AED was a VME and Qbus board set that was a complete color X terminal. At the time, Jim Gettys didn't see the point of the product. http://bitsavers.org/pdf/aed/colorware_cards/pictures/screen.jpg
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 597 bytes --] On 8/4/22 5:58 PM, Larry McVoy wrote: > See my signature :) I'm glad to see the :) because I did mean it as a joke and to be funny. > I bought new so most of the money poured was up front, I paid 10x > what a buddy of mine did who has the same boat (Grady-White 228 if > anyone cares) but mine just works and he is constantly working on his. > I got the better deal if you care about your time. There's the purchase price and then there's the total cost of ownership. > I want to fish, not wrench. I like that phrase and it's intent. -- Grant. . . . unix || die [-- Attachment #2: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature --] [-- Type: application/pkcs7-signature, Size: 4017 bytes --]
John Floren <john@jfloren.net> wrote:
> Today I came across an article about the MGR window system for Unix:
> https://hack.org/mc/mgr/
I ran it for a while on a sparcstation. Compared to X Windows on the
same hardware it was super fast. IIRC the version I used supported
color.
Although I owned a UnixPC, I never botherd to put MGR on it.
It was a neat, small footprint windowing system.
Arnold
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1417 bytes --] This thread needs to move to COFF to continue - although my own story is 1/2 about BSD and the VAX. On Thu, Aug 4, 2022 at 10:15 PM Al Kossow <aek@bitsavers.org> wrote: > On 8/4/22 5:37 PM, Andrew Newman wrote: > > > There's a bunch of AED documentation online, including this... > > > > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/aed/brochures/AED_767_Brochure_Jun82.pdf < > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/aed/brochures/AED_767_Brochure_Jun82.pdf> > > I worked at AED before going to Apple, to stay sort of window related, the > last project I worked on at AED was > a VME and Qbus board set that was a complete color X terminal. > I had to chuckle when I read that. In the fall of '82 (I think), we got a Smalltalk VM from PARC at UCB. Dave Unger, Ken Keller, and I - plus some other folks in Patterson's systems seminar who's names I have since forgotten, wrote a VM in C for the VAX/BSD. We used an AED512 and Keller's graphics library from his thesis running over a 19.2 serial link as the output. About a month after we had it running, a couple of us got to visit PARC, and Peter Deutch showed us Smalltalk running on a Dorado. He ran his hand with the mouse across the screen opening and closing a bunch of windows randomly. We started laughing and Peter asked us what was so funny. We told him what he did would have taken at least 5 minutes to redisplay on BSD/VAX version. Clem ᐧ [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 2767 bytes --]
[ Moved to COFF ] On Thu, 4 Aug 2022, Dan Cross wrote: [...] > It wasn't particularly notable, or at least didn't leave much of an > impression; it presented a pretty "standard" (and primitive!) > graphical experience. I believe it was monochrome, with amber > on black. It also ran on the Applix 1616, an Aussie designed and built 68000 system; it was pretty much ahead of its time. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Applix_1616 -- Dave
On Tue, 9 Aug 2022, Dave Horsfall wrote: > It also ran on the Applix 1616, an Aussie designed and built 68000 > system; it was pretty much ahead of its time. > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Applix_1616 Oops; I forgot the article describing how MGR was ported to said box: http://ericlindsay.com/applix/mgr.pdf -- Dave
On Thu, 4 Aug 2022, Larry McVoy wrote:
> Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2022 18:56:23
> From: Larry McVoy <lm@mcvoy.com>
> To: Bakul Shah <bakul@iitbombay.org>
> Cc: Grant Taylor <gtaylor@tnetconsulting.net>, tuhs@tuhs.org
> Subject: [TUHS] Re: The MGR window system and the Macintosh
>
> On Thu, Aug 04, 2022 at 04:21:28PM -0700, Bakul Shah wrote:
>>
>>> On Aug 4, 2022, at 4:07 PM, Grant Taylor via TUHS <tuhs@tuhs.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> On 8/4/22 2:29 PM, Al Kossow wrote:
>>>> i think I may need to push this to bitsavers. the c.s.unix archive was a little more difficult to find than I thought.
>>>
>>> Is that your site? Or someone else's. The URL tends to indicate the latter.
>>
>> I believe that is Andy Valencia's site. He is the author of VSTa microkernel.
>>
>>> I ask because I'd be happy to mirror it on my site.
>>
>> I think Usenet bits are archived on archive.org. For instance:
>> https://archive.org/details/cdrom-usernet-sources-newsgroups-1994-10-1
>>
>> You can also find them on googlegroups but don't know what damage they may
>> have done.
>
> Oh, the damage that Google has done to netnews is immense. Remember
> dejanews? With their spiffy search interface that would let you look for
> stuff in date ranges? Yeah, google bought dejanews, killed the search
> (because theirs was "better", it most definitely is not), and then did
> google groups which is complete garbage.
My current boss was a news admin at Dejanews and was there during
their end days. I was the sysadmin for the datacenter (SMARTNAP) that
DejaNews was co-lo'd in. Everyone wanted to peer with my news server
since it fed directly into Dejanews' stuff which was a couple of racks
down from my stuff.
Google bought Deja and ruined it.
IXC Communications bought SMARTNAP and ruined it.
--
Michael Parson
Pflugerville, TX
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 682 bytes --] On Fri, 16 Sept 2022 at 18:51, Michael Parson <mparson@bl.org> wrote: > > My current boss was a news admin at Dejanews and was there during > their end days. I was the sysadmin for the datacenter (SMARTNAP) that > DejaNews was co-lo'd in. Everyone wanted to peer with my news server > since it fed directly into Dejanews' stuff which was a couple of racks > down from my stuff. > > Google bought Deja and ruined it. I knew the head sysadmin from Dejanews very well and I remember his story about them being bought out by Google. Google flew in a bunch of engineers with a bunch of disks, imaged the whole database over a weekend, and then fired everyone. Good times. -Henry [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 1018 bytes --]